July 31, 1997  
This Date's Issues: 1103 •1104 •1105  1106

Johnson's Russia List [list two]
#1106
31 July 1997
djohnson@cdi.org

**********

Press Conference with the Former Security Council Secretary Alexander Lebed
(ARGUMENTY I Fakty Press Office, July 30, 1997) 
[for personal use only]

Moderator: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. Paraphrasing a famous
slogan, let me say, " Such a person exists and you know him. He is
Alexander Ivanovich Lebed." The subject matter of our press conference is
reform of the army. If there is anything you don't know about it, you can
learn it in the course of this press conference. You are welcome with your
questions. 

Lebed: I am sorry, but I would like to ask you to stock up on patience and
I will start with a soliloquy. 

Considering the present state of affairs in the army, one can only welcome
any attempts to reform it and welcome any forces which are making such
attempts. I must say that the name of the current Defense Minister, General
Sergeyev, will undoubtedly go down in the history of the Russian army, if
not of the Russian state, as the person who managed in extreme conditions
to exhibit wisdom, diplomatic skill and flexibility in order to ensure the
survival of the arm of the service he was in charge of -- the Strategic
Rocket Forces. So, what I will say today should not be seen as an attack on
the Defense Minister. This is friendly polemics, and attempt to find
answers to questions which do not yet have answers. I see no reason why I
should be in conflict with this highly sensible man. 

Nevertheless, questions may be asked. 

But first some information on the state of affairs as of July 25, four
days ago. The concept of the reform of the armed forces has been completed.
Its main ideologists are Defense Minister Sergeyev, the civilian deputy
defence minister Kokoshin, chief of General Staff Kvashnin, General
Manilov. The concept provides for two stages of the reform. The first stage
in 1997 and 1998 till January 1, 1999. The second stage -- 1999 and 2000
till January 1, 2001. 

The structure of the armed forces is to be formed mainly at the first
stage. The main services are the strategic missile forces, the ground
forces, the air force, the navy and airborne troops. In turn they are
subdivided into strategic missile forces consisting of four armies, a total
of 19 missile divisions; troops of military space defense and military
space forces. All this is related to strategy. 

The ground forces will be without the supreme command that is going to be
disbanded. There will be the Main Directorate of Ground Forces and the Main
Directorate for Combat Training. They will be subordinated to one of the
deputy defense ministers. 

There will be a total of eight Military Areas. 

At the second stage it is planning to have six Military Areas. Two will be
disbanded by merging the Volga and the Urals military areas and the
Siberian and Transbaikal areas. 

In the opinion of the General Staff this does not produce any benefit
other than an enlargement of management structures. The Military Areas
include seven armies, four army corps with a total of 25 divisions. During
the second stage two-three divisions will be eliminated. Also 26 divisions
without a preservation of armaments and hardware. Including as many as four
combat ready divisions. And this for the whole of the country. That will be
in the Moscow, North Caucasian, Leningrad and Far Eastern Military Areas.
Four divisions. 

The air force consists of two air armies of the Supreme Command, 5-7
separate armies of the air defense, the air force of Military Areas. A
total of eight, of them 5 with the rights of an air army of frontline
designation. A total of 18 air divisions. 

Navy. There will be no changes in its composition. Although it is intended
to restore some air force elements. 

And airborne troops consisting of five divisions and peacemaking brigades.
The total troop strength will be 1,200,000. It is a very reasonable level
below which it is impossible to go. Otherwise, the Armed Forces will simply
not be combat ready. 

What conclusions can be drawn from this information? The main criterion in
the approach to the reform of the military is to ensure the maximum
reductions in military spending within a short space of time. All the rest
is secondary and tertiary. 

And this prompted a hasty and ill-thought-out measures to reorganize the
control structures which have more to do with advertising. Unfortunately,
it skirts such key issues as what types of wars can be unleashed against
Russia, what should the Armed Forces and the country as a whole ready
themselves for, what groups of forces and assets we need in order to repel
an armed aggression. If these questions are answered, the requirements to
the system of Armed Forces command and control, the systems of operational,
combat, technical and logistical support become clear. And optimization of
the organizational and staff structures should proceed from that, and not
the other way around. So far, this is not the case. 

What does the analysis and assessment of the consequences of the reform of
the Armed Forces yield as far as reorganization of the structure is
concerned? 

And let me stress again that what I am pursuing now is a friendly
argument. Having embarked on such a complex undertaking as a reform of the
Armed Forces, we should first of all have a very clear-cut and
well-considered plan and then build on it. 

Well, the introduction into the Strategic Rocket Forces of the Military
Space Forces brings us back to where we were 20-30 years ago. Military
space forces were already part of the Strategic Rocket Forces before. At
that time they were under the command of the Main Directorate for Space
Assets. This merger undoubtedly strengthens the Strategic Rocket Forces as
an armed service. The Military Space Forces stand nothing to gain from it.
And it makes no difference to the combat readiness of the Armed Forces. The
handing over of space defense troops to the strategic missile force
strengthens the latter, even further weakens the country's air defense
system. 

I will make a small departure from our theme. You all remember the flight
of the young hooligan Rust. Because of a number of psychological
specificities of our then political leadership he actually became the head
of the personnel department of the air defense forces. This light plane
with a single engine, piloted by one person and flying at the lowest
possible altitude reached our capital. As a result the entire system was
disbanded. Figuratively speaking, the blunt end of an axe was used to swat
a mosquito that was sitting on the forehead. Today a third of the country's
territory has been left without adequate air cover. 

Well, the air defense system definitely will be weakened. All estimates
show this. First of all because the existing, I repeat, existing system of
combat control according to the pattern General Staff -- commander of air
defense forces -- space defense troops will be ruptured. It will take
decades to create a new system. And many trillions of rubles. 

I would like to say that the commander of the air defense forces was the
only commander who planned, who carried out a strategic operation. All the
other commanders, I hope they will not be offended, were simply interim
links. They were not needed for war. They performed only peace-time
administrative functions. 

Well, this innovation will have only a negative impact on the combat
readiness of the space defense force. Only a negative impact. It does not
affect in any way the combat readiness of the strategic missile force. 

The liquidation of the Supreme Command of the ground forces and the
forming of two Main Directorates. In practical terms this does not change
anything. The directorate of combat training existed always. The
Directorate of Ground Forces, formed on the basis of the main headquarters
of the ground forces ... The change will be only in its subordination. In
the past it was subordinated to the commander of the ground forces while
now it will be subordinated to a deputy defense minister. And that is all. 

The preservation of more than ten army and corps commands without troops,
I repeat, without troops is like honey without bees. It turns them into
something like operational groups. Out of every five ground divisions only
one will be combat ready. The others, like in the past, will have a
skeleton staff. In fact they will be nothing more than a reinforced base
for the storing of weapons and equipment. Four combat- ready divisions plus
the Moscow, Leningrad, Far Eastern and North Caucasus districts -- just
consider the spread -- won't be able to secure defense operations in the
initial phase in any direction. On a very, very conservative estimate two
or three times more is required. But more than 20 divisions with reduced
personnel will make 6 combat- ready divisions. It would make much more
sense to have these 5-6 divisions, that would be a tangible forces, then
maintaining something that is not quite clear. Maintaining the dozens of
army commands equals the cost of maintaining three combat-ready divisions.
One would do well to consider whether the country is better served by
having three divisions or a lot of offices which make little difference. 

I won't bore you by going over all the options. 

The merger of the Air Force and the Air Defense Troops. What does it
promise? On paper, it means that all the fighter planes will be under a
single command. But this cannot be realized in practice because the systems
of controlling the fighter forces in the Air Force and in the air defense
system are totally different at the basic, tactical level where the
immediate command to launch a rocket or for fighter plane to take off is
given. These systems are totally different. 

The transfer to the Air Force of the anti-air artillery and radio units of
the air defense system -- one thinks of the luckless army aviation which
has been tossed from the Air Force to the Ground Forces and back again.
Helicopters fly therefore they should be in the Air Force. If they support
the Ground Forces in combat then they should belong to the Ground Forces.
So, this has been going on for decades. And it will be the same this time
around because the radio and technical equipment will be seen by the Air
Force as auxiliary services, as a nuisance. 

Instead of merging the current five front air armies into two or three
combat-ready armies these armies are given the fine name of "district air
forces". This is pure tokenism. They won't become any stronger for that. 

Long-range aviation. Again it is being transformed. It is being
transformed into an air army of the Supreme Command. There will be two such
armies. By their combat composition, considering what we have today, they
will be nothing more than one air army, I repeat, of non- combat-ready
strategic aviation. And even this army is being artificially divided into
two and given a resounding name -- air army of the Supreme Command. 

I must say that for the heavy bomber divisions it does not really matter
who commands them -- the commander of an army or the commander of the
long-range aviation. It makes absolutely no difference for them. This is so
because they operate in accordance with plans of the General Staff.
Including in nuclear deterrence operations. All interim command links are
absolutely unnecessary here. They are simply extra cogs in the wheel. 

On the whole, a preliminary expert analysis shows that the merging of the
air force and the air defenses will reduce in a drop of the combat
readiness of the air defenses, in a loss of centralized control of air
defense operations in the interim period. And this could not be otherwise.
And this means that this will result, mildly putting it, in a drop in the
combat readiness of the armed forces as a whole. 

The projected handing over of a part of the naval forces in peace time to
the command of Military Areas first of all reduces the responsibility of
the naval command for the preparation of the navy's forces and means. This
automatically leads to a drop in the level of combat readiness. Mildly
putting it, I do not quite understand how the command of naval nuclear
deterrence forces is going to be effected. You see, this is the task of the
fleets and nobody else. Not a single Military Area can or should solve such
tasks. 

We have this rapid change of defense ministers when they supposedly do not
do anything about the military reform. We will have similar quick
replacements in the Military Areas as well. People will be forced to do
things that they do not know how to do. 

The perfection of interaction between fleets and Military Areas must
develop along the main direction. They must be able of effectively
conducting joint operations in maritime areas. They must also jointly take
part in repulsing an enemy air attack. These are the two directions and
there are no other ones. 

Finally, I would touch on the air-borne troops which are so dear to my
heart. 

We are such a large country that it is impossible to have a group of
forces and assets on every direction. No amount of forces or money or
nerves can accomplish that. So, we have to settle for maintaining a nuclear
shield and having mobile forces. For example, if the Taleban threaten the
border, three divisions can be airlifted there within three days. If there
is a threat in a different location, the same divisions can be shifted
there. This is logical. The Armed Forces of all countries without exception
are increasing the proportion of mobile forces, which is 7-10 percent of
the total forces currently. With us, it is 3 percent and the trend is for
that figure to go down. 

This has been supported by making formal arguments. For example, the
military transport aviation has ceased to exist. So, there is no one to
move the three divisions to an area of potential threat. And this is used
as an argument to prove that the air-borne troops are superfluous. That is
not so. The air-borne troops should be moved by civilian aviation if
military transport aviation is not available. And they would do their duty. 

Proceeding from this, air-borne units are converted into light motorized
divisions with largely improvised ways of moving them. Two divisions, the
Novorossiisk and Pskov divisions, are becoming dual purpose divisions,
air-borne and ground divisions. One is on the border and the other will be
on seashore. At the same time the commander's directorate is becoming a
controlling body which corresponds to the level of army command. 

And now the conclusions from this expert evaluation. 

I am giving these conclusions hoping to get a coherent answer. One
concludes that the projected reorganization of the Armed Forces will be
confined to the transformation of administrative structures. Potentially,
those who have the strongest pull and the strongest lobby, will get the
most. I am not going to poke my finger at those who will gain most. I think
you'll guess yourself. 

The role of the General Staff as the brain trust of the Armed Forces is
not discernible. The majority of the generals and officers in the General
Staff have been kept out of the discussion of the problem of reform, nobody
is asking their opinion and they have no say in deciding on reform. All the
decisions are taken in a narrow circle of trusted people. Without seeking
to insult anyone, let me say that some of these people are very remote from
the Army and its problems and are incompetent. For example, Deputy Defense
Minister Kokoshin, General Manilov. One of them is a civilian, the other a
political worker with a lot of stars on his shoulder straps. And you know
the difference between a commander and a political commissar. A commander
says, "Do as I do." And a political commissar says, "Do as I tell you." So,
we face the risk of finding ourselves in such a situation. 

The third conclusion is that the implementation of the planned measures
would disrupt the system of Armed Forces control, its combat readiness and
especially the system of centralized combat control. 

To restore the system would require decades and trillions of rubles. And
the main conclusion, which may not please the authors of the conception,
that the main thrust of the reform is not to prepare the Armed Forces for
warfare, which is the basis of the military doctrines of all
self-respecting countries, but to promote peace-time goals, and primarily
internal political goals. 

And I would like briefly to touch upon two other aspects. When the mass
media commented on the presidential decree on the reform of the Armed
Forces -- I never had a chance to read the decree, I only read it in the
press -- four questions immediately suggested themselves. First, let me
read the original text of the decree so as to be able to judge on the basis
of the source. Second, what is the mechanism for the implementation of the
decree, of financing and monitoring its execution? I have yet to get an
answer, but I very much hope I will get it. 

And turning to the meeting of General Sergeyev, for whom I have the
highest regard, with journalists and proceeding from his reasoning I would
like to repeat some questions. 

First, it comes out according to the President's decree that in the course
of 18 months we have decided to demobilize 500,000 men. 500,000, I stress.
Today in many Military Areas we do not have the money to pay one officer
his wages once a month. This officer is being told to be patient. That is
why officers and generals find second jobs as watchmen, porters, just name
it. They are prepared to do any work just to survive. Georgy Dmitriyevich
simply notes the fact, proceeding from the text of the meeting, that we
have today 2,500 officers whom we cannot properly demobilize in accordance
with the existing legislation. What does "accordance with the existing
legislation" mean? It means that this officer must be paid not one salary
but 20 salaries. He must be paid this compensation as salaries two years in
advance. 

Where are we to get this money from? How do we expect to demobilize
500,000 men in the course of 18 months? Will it be 100,000 men every
quarter? How does the General Staff, the country's political leadership see
the process of demobilizing such a huge number of men? How are they to be
provided with housing, with money, how are they to be retrained? Or will
they simply be thrown out? If we do not prepare carefully, exactly this
will happen. 

Let us turn to the text again. Financing of the reforms. Sources. First,
budget money on the perfection of combat training, on ensuring combat
readiness. But immediately the fact is admitted that for the time being
this figure is actually equal almost to zero, to 1 percent. But in 1998
this figure will grow already to 10 percent. 

I want to ask, dear friends, where will this money come from? Has a
grandmother in America left us a fortune? Have we found a treasure? I will
remind you that we are now at the close of July 1997. What sudden bright
prospects do we see on the horizon? 

The second source is the item in the budget providing allocations for
social guarantees to demobilized servicemen. I have already commented on
this. We cannot demobilize 2,500 men. These are not my figures, these are
figures provided by the Defense Minister. 

The third source -- sale of surplus military equipment and military trade
enterprises. Had this been said in 1992, I would have agreed that this is a
source. At that time I was in command of an army and the sale of that
army's property alone would be enough to pay wages to a quarter of the
armed forces, if not a half of them. The material stocks were colossal. But
today I doubt that anything remains that could contribute in a major way to
the solution of this sensitive issue. And the fourth source for the reform
of the army is money from the sale of excess armaments. That too involves
some problems. I tried to address these problems, but I failed. The problem
is that weapons can be used against those people who manufacture them
depending on whose hands they fall in. So, one cannot entrust the issue of
arms race to merchants. There needs to be a committee or call it what you
like, to determine the strategy, the policy of arms sale before handing
down their instructions to the merchants. At present we do not have such a
watchdog body. So, we sell weapons to people and countries and these
weapons after a while may strike at some of our stupid heads. 

What I find heartening is that the question of information support of
reform has at last been raised. This is unprecedented in our practice. 

MORE In 1990 if anything, the information support of the Desert Storm
operation was excellent. That is why this operation went down in history as
something perfect, although it was far from perfect. At long last the
message sank in that there must be information support. That is a very
serious move and an indicator of a certain seriousness in the approach to
reform. 

And one last point. I suspect that I have rather bored you. Lev
Yakovlevich Rokhlin and his organization in support of the army. There is
much about it that is strange. If it is not a political organization, that
is no problem. The all-Russian public movement Honor and Motherland is not
a political organization and it was created to address the problems of the
army and it is addressing them. It has developed a conception of national
security, a military doctrine and the main approaches to the building of
Armed Forces in a transitional period. Professionals are involved in this.
I have brought along with me the output of one of the divisions in the
movement. And you can see they progressed. They started with this kind of
materials, with this kind of binding and design and they ended up with this
kind. "The Military Legislation of the Russian Empire," "Christ-Loving
Soldiery". It contains interesting facts because a person who is prepared
to take somebody's life and to lay down his own life should become very
conscious of how to win by skill and not by numbers. "Russian Officers,"
"Social Protection," "Basic Principles of Practical and Military Sociology"
-- about thirty books in all. They are mailed to all the army units. The
distribution is limited, but this work is going on. 

Moderator: Do you have your own publishing house? Your public association? 

Lebed: Yes. This work is being done. I show what army Russia needs.
Everything is shown here. It is strange to me that the national public
association Honor and Motherland has difficulties joining Lev Yakovlevich
Rokhlin's organization. I have the impression that somebody must have
decided to privatize the theme of the army and concern for it. Somebody has
divided the officers and generals into the "clean" and "unclean". The
"clean" go to Rokhlin, while the "unclean" go overboard. 

I hold that Russia is my country. This is my army. I have served in it for
26 years. Without fear of sounding immodest I will say that I have served
quite well in it. I didn't lose to anybody, I did not even once surrender
anything to anyone. I have the supreme moral right to take part in any
movement that deals with reforming of the army. 

Moderator: Did he deny General Rokhlin? He said that the doors were open
to everybody. 

Lebed: These were just words. In practice some secret meetings are being
held. Somebody is hiding something from others. There is slyness. I do not
quite understand the behavior of this esteemed general and the other
esteemed people who have joined this movement. But I think we will
eventually settle matters. I think that at least along this direction we
all will work together. We have one country, we have only one sky over us,
we have only one destiny. It depends on us, if this is going to be a good
or a bad destiny. 

I thank you, friends, for your patience. I am ready to take your questions. 

Q: Vestnik. I believe that at this difficult time the question of
voluntary service in the army is not going to be discussed. Am I right? 

Lebed: You are right. 

Q: But the President promised by the year 2000 to make the army a fully
professional one. 

Lebed: What a tactless person you are. Why are you reminding such things
to the President? Publicly. You were very badly brought up. He has
forgotten about this. Not good. 

Q: Radio Russia. What do you think about the efforts to stamp out
corruption in the army? -- (inaudible) -- an agreement on military
cooperation with Moldavia was signed a week ago. Would you care to comment
on it? 

Lebed: First I will speak about the fight against corruption in general.
Talk about this has been started a long time ago. We speak loudly and often
about this. 

And now may I ask you, the information people, can you name a major
government figure who was put on trial or thrown out of office for
corruption? 

Moderator: Kovalyov was recently thrown up for his links with the gangsters. 

Lebed: You shouldn't accuse Kovalyov of corruption. What Kovalyo engaged
in had nothing to do with politics. It has nothing to do with corruption.
And I challenge you to name anyone who was thrown out of office for
corruption. But don't give me Stankevich, he is a spent force, a cipher and
the charges against him are laughable -- 10,000 dollars. Don't touch Pyotr
Karpov for 5 million rubles. 

What is happening is that lower level officials are surrendered in order
to protect the higher level officials. Now about generals. In 1992-1993 a
brilliant operation was carried out. The former Defense Minister issued
large loans out of the Defense Ministry funds to his cronies. They built
themselves palaces and bought themselves cars. The loans were repaid by the
Defense Ministry, so they got all this for free. As a result, all these
cronies were put on a short leash. And now the time has come to pay the
bills. They can be bashed on their heads with impunity and they will keep
silent. They will keep silent until their dying hour because they know they
have been bought. The most helpless among the corrupt are people in uniforms. 

On the second question. Military cooperation with Moldavia. Moldavians are
very nice people, very hospitable and fun-loving. They like to have a good
drink and to sing and dance. It is wonderful that we have signed a treaty
on military cooperation with such wonderful people. And considering that we
are separated from them by Ukraine, it's just fine. It's like the joke
about a war between Sweden and China. Question: who will win? Answer: We
don't know who will win, but they will certainly trample on the Ukrainians'
vegetable gardens. 

Q: (Off mike.) 

Lebed: The best military doctrine is for the country's leader to climb the
highest rostrum existing in the world and to declare clearly and out loud
that in this century we lost some 70-75 million of human lives in all kinds
of fights and other nonsense, which opened a demographic gap. Indirect
losses -- children and grandchildren which were not born -- amount to 320
million -- these are losses affecting our tomorrow. Given this, we are not
going to fight any more. We will build our life within our present-day
borders. And never will the Russian soldier tread other lands as invaders. 

I would like to look at the faces of NATO and other "big fists", which
suddenly have found vacuum around them. 

Q: (Off mike.) 

Lebed: No, the taxpayers will be scared. They will not pay for the vacuum,
will they? This problem already exists, it was obvious to me as early as
last year. Who is to pay for this expensive pleasure. There is a question
of political ambitions, and there is a purely financial issue. 

So, 28% of the expenses involved in the expansion are to be met by the
United States. I have received a great many of senators who sought to
persuade me to help them prevent NATO from expanding, so they do not have
to pay these 28%. Who is supposed to pay the rest, 72%, I don't know. I
know for sure Germany and France will not. One should expect Luxembourg to
close this gap. 

Q: (Off mike.) 

Lebed: And then there was that intervention of God, which made the burden
of expenses on infrastructure even heavier. The intervention of other
forces is unexplainable, why should they (inaudible) such horrors? 

Q: (Off mike.) What could you advise to ordinary Americans (off mike) What
dangers could there arise for other nations and in particular for America? 

Lebed: Well, I could repeat what has repeatedly been stated: we have lost,
but you have not won. If we start to fall apart and get ruined, (inaudible)
for the whole world. Our admirable nuclear power plants, which have no
technical or physical safety or security; our shocking chemical plants,
which are at death's door; our colossal stocks of chemical and
bacteriological weapons -- all this could hit not only us on the head. 

Given that we are unequalled in survivability, it is not clear who will be
the first to die. So, love Russia with all your heart, passionately, taking
the stance of outright egoists, without caring about anyone else but
yourselves, help it get rid of all these terrible things that are fraught
with catastrophic consequences not only for it but also for the entire
world. If one-sixth of the Earth starts collapsing, the others will be
affected as well. 

Take Chernobyl. There was only an ejection, but one-tenth of the territory
of Ukraine, one-fifth of the territory of Byelorussia and a big part of the
Russian Federation suffered. Just from an ejection. And this problem will
last for some 70 years. And we do not know what mutations there will be in
the second and third generations. Calves with two heads have already been
born. So start loving Russia, so stop playing games, stop disintegrating it. 

I remember this story about a man who is sitting on the branch of a tree
and sawing it off. A passer-by warns him that he might fall. But the man
refused to listen to him. The passer-by moves away two steps and hears the
man falling to the ground. He looks back and sees him scratching his head
and saying "Man, you are a sorcerer". 

Q: What can you say about the outcome of the gubernatorial elections in
Irkutsk region? 

Lebed: Nothing unprecedented happened there. Something of the sort
happened earlier in Nizhny Novgorod. In other words, everything goes. But
everything that God does is for the better. I was looking in Irkutsk for
administrative solutions. Others were looking where the wind is blowing.
Jul 30, 1997 9:25 ET 

There are three problems there now. Very big problems with very big
possible consequences. First of all, the problem of three hydropower
stations. Huge stations that were built by the whole country, by millions
of people. Suddenly, according to somebody's will, these stations turned
out to be the property of a handful of bureaucrats from Irkutskenergo. And
around the stations stand old barracks living in which are old people who
created this marvel. And they are in a corresponding mood. They have
children and grandchildren. 

The second problem is that of the Ust-Ilimsk timber complex. The town of
Ust-Ilimsk with a population of 100,000 grew around this enterprise. But
now this complex is standing idle and the entire population of the town is
starving. They cannot leave, they have no money to buy bread. Actually the
town is like a powder keg. I spent some two hours asking them not to
explode. I do not know how successful I was. But potentially this keg will
explode. 

The third problem is Sukhoi Log. That is a unique gold deposit that is not
being worked. It simply was bought up and mothballed. It is only in our
country that it is not profitable to mine gold. And it is only our country
that for some reason does not want to increase its gold reserves. It is
just that somebody told us that this is not profitable and we believed what
we heard. 

Q: I was asking about the gubernatorial elections. 

Lebed: As to the gubernatorial elections, these problems have to be
separated. Either they will resolved in a way that will reduce tensions, or
else, this area will blow up. When you have nothing, it's bad, but when you
have everything -- you have gold and everything and yet you are starving,
it gives people all sorts of ideas, bad ideas, it makes them think in terms
of a revolution. 

Q: You are a pacifist. 

Lebed: Me a pacifist? No, I am just a very lazy fellow. Because when
nitwits start a war, I will have to fight it, because I am a professional
soldiers. And I am lazy. Therefore I take measures to prevent war. I am not
a pacifist. I am a general with the paratroops. I have served with the
air-borne forces for 26 years and generals, angels and pacifists don't
belong in the same category. 

Q: (Off mike.) 

Lebed: I need Lev Rokhlin and his organization for one purpose only, so as
to clench the spread fingers into a fist. So as to have a system. So that
people should not work at cross purposes. 

Q: (Off mike.) 

Lebed: Why in a different way than Sergeyev? On the contrary, I want to be
with Sergeyev and with Rokhlin and with hundreds and millions of people who
are professionals. But we still live according to the principles of the
Brezhnev era: those who can, don't want to, those who want to can't and
those who can and want to are not allowed to. 

Q: A follow up, if I may. General Rutskoi said in his time that you were
recalled from Transdniestria in order to be a counterweight to him. You
were given an apartment on Rublevskoye Shosse, and your own party, KRO, so
as to defeat him in the election. Now a third general has come along,
general Rokhlin, who is also stirring up public opinion. When will somebody
come along who will do something real? 

Lebed: I believe this is an extremely rude question, at least as far as I
am concerned. I can tell you with all responsibility that I have saved the
lives of tens and hundreds of thousands of people in at least two places.
So, you needn't worry about me. I have already earned my keep. As for my
apartment, it was an apartment I got during the Soviet period and it has a
floor space of 48 square meters. 

Q: I quoted a statement by Rutskoi, but I did not use quotation marks. 

Lebed: So you did not use quotation marks. Good. The question is not in
feeding generals. The thing is to create a system, a structure, an
organization that would be potentially effective. The matter is for some
people not to privatize some sectors of this military reform, not to use
their elbows to push people away. This is mine and I will not let anybody
close to it -- such is their attitude. This is not the sphere of activity
for such methods. All this fuss will end badly. 

This is my sole interest in this. We must have an organization that on the
basis of logic, facts ... We are in the premises of a remarkable
publication, Argumenty i Fakty. Arguments and facts, calculations, figures,
logic -- these are the instruments that we need to do the job. Regardless
of political coloring, likes and dislikes. 

The reforming of the army is a purely professional and specific matter.
Not a political one. 

Q: NTV. A news agency recently reported that the conflict between Nemtsov,
Chubais, Berezovsky and -- (inaudible) -- by Lebed. How would you comment
on this? 

Lebed: I am not so cynical as to speak from such positions. What we have
is an agony of government. There is this Marxist law of the unity and
struggle of opposites. On the one hand, they are doomed to be together.
They know that if one brick is removed from the wall, it will collapse. To
survive, they must consolidate. On the other side, the processes have gone
so far that they are simply doomed to fight. 

This is not a question of the advantages for Lebed. It is a pity to watch
all this. Government has gone too far. When you start analyzing in detail
any process... I have not yet found a single instance of account being
given for the country's strategic interest. But I do come across instances
of desire to fill one's pocket, to trip up a rival, to tickle one's ego. 

We have a specific category of people who want others to see that they are
stealing and that they can do nothing about this. This is a sort of
addiction, I would say. All this is very sad, these are not authorities.
All this is bound to collapse. So, for me the only question is to ensure
that as few people as possible are crushed in that collapse, that we don't
slide again into another bloody confrontation, that we are not divided
again into the Red and the White, that we don't start to diligently
exterminate one another. 

This tragic division is already 80 years' old. It's high time to put an
end to it. Our territory is so vast that there will be enough work to do
both for the Red and the White. And if you still cannot coexist, we will
separate you by 100 kilometers. Go ahead, build a communist and a
democratic village, tomorrow we will see which one is better. There can be
no question of profit. Thank you. 

Q: (Off mike.) 

Lebed: Absolutely no mistake. I will explain why. First, (inaudible) one
month ago I was in my homeland, in Rostov Region. I entered a laboratory in
Rostov, where still 446 unidentified corpses are stored, which are watched
by their half-insane mothers. To be buried, they need to be identified.
Money is needed for that, 2 billion rubles. The "youngest" of those corpses
is one-year-old, the "oldest" is two-and-a-half-year-old. 

So, we have not finished that war. A state which sends its people to a war
ought to see all processes through to a logical end. All those killed must
have their personal grave, all those alive must be brought back to their
homes. This is sort of a commentary on our state's approach to warfare
(inaudible). As long as a person is able to fight, it's okay, but when he
has his hand or leg torn away or gets a bullet into his forehead, this is
his mother's difficulties, who often turns out to be a lonely woman living
on 290,000 rubles (per month). So, such army cannot be relied upon, such an
army is fundamentally incapable of winning any campaign. 

Second, talks do not increase the number of dead bodies. Third, a poor
peace is always better than a good fight. Fourthly, the question of
territorism is solved by concrete work. I know perfectly well that I am
quite capable of organizing anyone, including the leaders of Chechnya, in
doing this job. That is, either you mean business, or you play games. So
far, unfortunately, we have been playing games. Did it ever occur to you to
ask yourself why one of the worthiest citizens of our country, Boris
Abramovich Berezovsky, who as a result of privatization got hold of
Aeroflot, Logovaz, Sibneft and ORT, abandoned all these lucrative areas of
business and accepted a secondary post of deputy secretary of the Security
Council? Did you ever ponder that question? 

He pursued two tasks: to cover up the tracks of his previous bloody piece
of business. He came to me at the time. He was furious, "What do you think
you are doing? You have ruined such a lucrative business. All right, people
get killed, and there is shooting, but people are killed at all times." 

It was a black financial hole on the Russian body where you could bring
off all sorts of shady deals. One set of people was doing business and
another set of people was getting killed. And as often in early history, we
ended up with having an all-out war on our hands. The whole people was
making war 24 hours a day. And you cannot defeat a people. Such a war was
lost by Napoleon, by Hitler. Americans escaped from such a war in Vietnam
and Somalia and we retreated from Afghanistan. There is no way of winning
such a war. 

Q: You are giving us a sensational piece of news. You are naming a person
who earned his capital on the Chechen war. Did I understand you correctly? 

Lebed: Yes, you got me right. Let him sue me. So, his first aim was to
liquidate the consequences of his bloody business affairs and the second
problem was the pipeline Tengiz-Chechnya-Novorossiisk and that spells
investments. And when the question of the lives of hundreds of thousands of
people is put on the other side of the scales with a pipeline, there will
never be peace, there will never be any constructive work. People there
don't want to understand the simple truth and look at our recent history.
In the Soviet times 42 percent of Chechen men left each year in April to
earn a living elsewhere in the Soviet Union. And they came back in October.
Now they have arms. Either you have to give them something to do, even
those who can handle nothing but rifles, let them be security guards.
Failing that, they will continue to engage in robbery. And because they are
constantly cheated, like they were last year. For instance, when election
day came, they signed a little treaty to prevent any shooting on election
day. And the following day the aircraft were again in the air and the tanks
were in the field and it was back to the old fighting days again. Again
quiet is needed and again a treaty was signed. Everything depends there on
the word that is given. We must remember that that is the Caucasus. If a
person there gives his word, he will honor it. I know this for sure. 

A unique development passed unnoticed there. I mean the joint commandant's
offices. I brought together people who were killing each other yesterday. I
lined them up facing one another. They made a promise to one another. I
wrote it for them. And they began to serve together. No matter what
attempts were made to set them at loggerheads... They would say such things
to each other like "you wait, several months will pass, and I certainly
will do you in, but today we are in the same trench, I will cover your back
and you will give me cover as well. I know that". And they did fulfill
their task. 

So everything depends on how one works, on what sort of Chechnya will
there be. 

Q: (Off mike.) 

Lebed: Do you know why the war stopped there? Because all the structures
that existed under the table and made the war a profitable thing were
destroyed. It was proved that peace is something that is more advantageous
than war. That was the main reason. I broke those structures. All the rest
requires a very specific study. 

Q: Is it an interesting thing for you to create a party, considering your
temperament? 

Lebed: The party was set up on March 15. It is now functioning in 78
regions of the country. It has a membership of 24,185. That was two weeks
ago. I do not strive for numbers. You can go to any beer hall, stand the
men a drink and your party ranks will swell. Instantly. But I am interested
in quality. The criteria are patriotism, professionalism and decency. 

I understand that in our country the word "party" evokes a definite
reaction in many people. Negative associations. But objectively nobody has
invented anything better than a party structure. It is necessary to create
a vertical. So the matter is not in temperament but in necessity. It is
necessary to do this and that is why I am doing this. 

The task is to create structures in all regions, to reach out to all the
small towns and villages. The task is to seize power from below. The last
major success was the elections of the mayor of Samara. He is a member of
the party's political council. So, I am not in a hurry. I said that this is
my land. You have bury me in it, but you can't make me budge an inch from
it. And the members of my party are like me. Yes, there are a lot of
shortcomings in terms of organization. There are a lot of crooks. Those who
are trying to capitalize on my popularity. But these are teething troubles.
We can handle them. 

Q: (Off mike.) 

Lebed: Let me take some time to answer your question. We the Soviet Union,
took part in all the regional wars, openly, but more often covertly.In
Afghanistan we fought for almost ten years. A million and a half people
served in Afghanistan, 15,000 people were killed, that's 1 percent. Ninety
nine percent came back and no one did anything to change the order of
things. As many people fought in Chechnya. Again, no reaction. Millions of
people have been directly or indirectly involved in trouble spots
elsewhere. 1,200,000 people are already outside the army. Two million
people are sitting in firms in beastly conditions. The concentration of
potentially evil people in this country, people who are seething with
hatred and vengeance is very high. So, if you inject another 500,000 people
a critical mass may be formed. 

Q: (Off mike.) 

Lebed: I am not a fantast, but I intend to do everything to prevent that
happening. I am not interested. I am sure it will be a bloody picture. And
that is undesirable, it would be the end. Bosses have always been bashed
for failing to take measures. Bosses are obliged to take measures. The
President is the boss and he is the political leader of the nation whose
duty it is to consolidate the nation and not to wave his fists and threaten
to box the Duma on the ear, and to hit the Federation Council. He should
not divide people into "us" and "them", into the righteous and unrighteous. 

Q: Your party, the People's Republican Party, is defined as a party of the
middle class. This means that you have a stake in the success of small
businesses in the country. The number of small businesses is declining and
this means that your electoral base is shrinking. How would you promote
small businesses? 

Lebed: In my present status? 

Q: What can you and your party do for them? 

Lebed: I will begin with an example. When I started dealing with Chechnya
I spent six weeks getting the authority that I needed so that I could exert
influence. And then I needed 20 days to fulfill my task. It all began on
the 10th and ended on the 30th. The problem was solved. 

I am sorry, but you are putting the cart before the horse. I am forming
the party precisely for the purpose of bringing to power people who, using
their powers, would clear the road for the development of small and medium
businesses. And that is the majority of the population. They would provide
them with laws that would serve them. If I ask you to tell me what law is
tailored to your needs and working for you, you will not be able to give me
an answer, although we have a maze of laws. It appears that in our country
people and laws exist by themselves. 

Well, the task will be to unfetter people, provide them with good laws,
give an outlet to their energies, to protect the fruit of their labors. It
is extremely important for them to know that the fruit of their labor is
protected. In these circumstances people will definitely take care of
themselves. There can be no other direction of this process. 

The people in small businesses today, those who have money today, are like
humpbacks. They cannot raise their heads. They are oppressed by racketeers,
bureaucrats, the tax inspectorate, the police. They are rich rabbits. They
only do not know when they will be regarded as expendable. This is another
problem that needs solution. Many of these people want to be not only rich,
they want to be real people on their land, they want to be able to walk
about with their heads raised proudly. They want to be law-abiding, to pay
taxes and not to be afraid of anything. 

This is how the process will take place. Not the other way round. 

Q: What do you think will be the impact of the developments in Georgia and
Abkhazia? In the Caucasus in general? What do you think are the prospects
for Anatoly Chubais? 

Lebed: Russia's prospects in the Caucasus are pitiful. This did not happen
by itself. This is a man-made situation. Last year I was trying to meet
with the President to ask him to introduce direct presidential rule in the
zone of the Ossetia-Ingush conflict, to appoint the president's man and
vest him with corresponding powers and give him a staff in order to
untangle the knot. Do you know the name of the president's representative?
No. So, nobody was doing anything. Things were left to drift. Wasn't it
clear all along that it would blow up some day? Why is everything left to
drift in Daghestan, Chechnya, Ossetia? Why? I have become convinced that
this is a kind of hedging against any eventuality. Whatever happens on the
territory of the rest of Russia one can always provoke a war. And you can
explain away everything. Here is the enemy, you have to fight the enemy.
You can explain to a poor old woman that she shouldn't be clamoring for her
pension when the war is on. 

One can't think of a likely external enemy. It is hard to picture NATO as
an enemy. And there are no other enemies. So, we would do well to have an
internal enemy to divert public attention. This is a method well-tested
over the centuries. As for the future of Anatoly Borisovich Chubais, I
think one can pity him. After carrying out privatization which left 85
percent of the country's population without any property in record short
time (he must have had good schooling in fulfilling a five-year plan in
three years). By the way, if a task can be accomplished within half the
time allocated for it, it means just one thing, mismanagement and poor
planning. 

Anatoly Borisovich ruined his public image for all time. So, all his
attempts and the money spent on building his image and posing as the
champion of the people, a hero who knows the ultimate truth and who is
being prevented from bringing the truth to all of us -- all these attempts
are doomed to failure. But there is no doubt that he is a strong-willed
person, only his will is negative, it is directed toward ruining the
country, toward intrigues. He spends all his energies on intrigues within
the Kremlin. 

This makes me think of a joke. An entry in a partizan's diary. The day
before yesterday we licked the Whites, yesterday they licked us, then the
forester came and dispersed us. 

Q: To take you back to the first question, the situation in the Caucasus.
Do you support the statement by Aushev who asked for direct presidential
rule to be established and the Security Council refused? 

Lebed: I certainly support that demand because this is the first sensible
solution which suggests itself. If people look at each other through their
gunsights, and they are invited to negotiate at the same time, it doesn't
quite add up. So, a third party should come and make them sit at the
negotiating table, persuade them and organize the whole thing. But a third
party never came in spite of all the requests to the President on my part,
on the part of Aushev and Galazov. 

Q: But Galazov objects to direct presidential rule. 

Lebed: He objects now. He objects now. 

Q: (Off mike.) 

Moderator: The question is about promoting Nemtsov for president. 

Lebed: Let him run for any office. We are a democratic law governed state.
Nobody is forbidden anything. We have long left Gorbachev's formula behind
us: "Anything that is not forbidden is allowed." With us, nothing is
forbidden and everything is allowed. 

Q: (Off mike.) 

Lebed: I have done something real. I am doing a real job and I don't care
very much what people think. I know for sure that I have the strength and
the assets and they are growing. And if I extend a hand, it is not from
weakness but from strength. 

Q: But they can do it through legislation. You don't have such an
opportunity, not yet. 

Lebed: What is built on sand will collapse anyway. And a solid and
reliable basis will need to be created and this is what I am doing. And if
it collapses, we will build a new. It won't be the first time. We step on a
rake, bump our heads and draw lessons and move on. 

Q: How should the Army be reduced? What is the concept? 

Lebed: The army should be reduced scientifically. I have answered that
question. The mechanism of implementation is calculation, professional
calculation. It should be based on what is given to me for a certain
period. A trillion for one month, a trillion for a year or a trillion for
ten years. Decisions would differ depending on these things. 

Q: So, could you tell me how and over what period ... 

Moderator: I am sorry... 

Lebed: The calculations are not very simple, but neither are they the most
complex. These calculations can be made, but I have no time for making
calculations against hypothetical situations. We should bring together all
the people who deal with these matters, including the Defense Minister and
the Secretary of the Defense Council. And once a certain consensus is
reached, making calculations is no problem. I told you that the General
Staff is the brain center, the brain of the arm, and no one takes part in
the reform. What kind of reform is this! Why were the bulk of the people --
and people who were by far not the most foolish -- left out? How come? 

Moderator: We hope the journalists will approach you for exclusive
interviews. Do you still have time, for your TV companies? And we are
winding up our press conference. Our guest today was Alexander Ivanovich
Lebed, who hopes for the president's answers on military reform. 

Lebed: I thank you, dear friends, for your long-suffering.

**********