#20 - JRL 8096 - JRL Home
TITLE:
RADIO INTERVIEW WITH MIKHAIL LYUBIMOV, WRITER AND FORMER KGB AGENT [Re: Qatar Assassination]
[EKHO MOSKVY RADIO, 15:09, FEBRUARY 26, 2004]
SOURCE: FEDERAL NEWS SERVICE (http://www.fednews.ru/)

Anchor: We have invited Mikhail Lyubimov, a writer and a former foreign intelligence officer, to try to comment on the situation where Qatar's authorities have accused two Russian special service officers of having played a role in the assassination of one of the Chechen separatist leaders, Zelimkhan Yandarbiyev. As you know, the officers are now in prison in Doha, the capital of Qatar.

Mikhail Lyubimov is already in the building, as far as I know, and is now going up to the 14th floor in the elevator. We expect him to join us in this live broadcast any minute. In the meantime I will read out some of the titles reported by news agencies today.

Acting Foreign Minister Igor Ivanov confirms that the Russians detained in Qatar had nothing to do with Yandarbiyev's assassination. In his words, on the night from February 18 to February 19 in Doha, the capital of Qatar, local special services arrested three Russian citizens who were on a business trip to the Russian embassy. One of them was later released and is now staying at the Russian embassy. The Foreign Ministry has confirmed that all three are officers of the Russian special services and one of them even had a diplomatic passport.

Soviet intelligence service veteran Mikhail Lyubimov thinks that the charges brought against the two Russians in Qatar, who have been accused of having been involved in the assassination of Yandarbiyev, are absurd. He says that nothing like this had never happened in the work of Russian special services. He says that all special services in the world that have employed methods of liquidation have always used their agents, not official representatives. Basically that's a word for word quote from Mikhail Lyubimov's remarks cited by Interfax.

Mikhail Petrovich, welcome to our studio. You may sit here. Let us begin. I have made a few opening remarks and read several news titles. The last one was yours. You think that the charges against the two Russians in Qatar are absurd.

Lyubimov: The history of political assassinations, at least in our country, shows that special agents have always been used for that, not diplomatic representatives or people like those who sit somewhere in Qatar, whether it's our embassy or elsewhere. They were sent there under invented names.

You know that Trotsky was killed by a Spaniard, Mercader. Apparently he was a GPU agent. Bandera -- by the way it was the last assassination --

Anchor: In the year 1959.

Lyubimov: Yes, it was in the year 1959. There was a ruling of the Soviet court that passed a death sentence on him. He was killed by Stashinsky, an agent, a Ukrainian, in Munich.

After that we helped our Bulgarian friends, so-called friends at that time, to kill Bulgarian dissident Markov in London. We simply supplied them with poison. Our laboratory had such poisons. And of course the killing of Amin. But it was a special operation. It was basically a coup d'etat. So there was no secret about that.

But the assassination of Yandarbiyev -- actually the KGB was blamed for everything. It was blamed for the killing of Alexander Galich, even though it had nothing to do with that. So when a murder occurred, the Americans hyped it -- they ascribed an assassination attempt against the Pope to the KGB. Fantastic. Nothing of it was true.

Anchor: A former KGB officer, Alexander Litvinenko, is convinced that Yandarbiyev was killed by Russian special services. Moreover, he says that he has no doubts about that. Look at what he says: "I don't think that Qatar is slandering the Russian special services. If they had a goal, as we are told sometimes, to discredit the Russian special services, they would have done that on the first day."

Lyubimov: First of all Litvinenko is a traitor. He is Berezovsky's aide and he could not say anything else. So it would be absurd to believe him. Secondly, in principle anything may happen. We are fighting in Chechnya and our guys get killed there. But a foreign operation in a democratic country, and ours is a democratic country --

Anchor: Are you saying that nothing could have changed in mentality in the last few years?

Lyubimov: There could have been, but then it must have been a decision at the top level. In the previous times, these decisions were made by Politburo.

Anchor: You do not rule out that the mentality of Russian special services might have changed in the last several years, do you?

Lyubimov: I think it is a radical turn if it occurred. But at least this one is justified. I personally feel no regret that Yandarbiyev was killed.

Anchor: We are not talking about regret or pity, but --

Lyubimov: But in order to carry out an operation in a foreign country, there must be a decision of the top leadership.

Anchor: Like in Israel.

Lyubimov: Yes, in Israel it's a policy. We haven't had anything like that so far. One may ascribe anything to us, but we did not do it. But of course if it is proved -- the biggest absurdity in this case is that official representatives who were staying in Qatar were arrested. It's total nonsense that official representatives could kill Yandarbiyev. It's just can't be. Official bodies always stay away from this.

Anchor: What makes you so convinced of that?

Lyubimov: My experience in the first place, and world experience.

Anchor: Look at what Viktor from Moscow writes to you: "Don't you think that the level of modern FSB operations can hardly be compared to that of the KGB? The current level is extremely low and there are no top professionals. What do you think about this?"

Lyubimov: I don't know how these things are done at the FSB nowadays. But I don't think that everything was so excellent at the KGB. Just for Viktor's information, there used to be classified orders to liquidate traitors. However, none of our traitors abroad has been killed, Lyalin, Gordiyevsky and others. It's a long list. They were not killed not because we could not kill them but because we were afraid of political scandals, because usually it comes back at you like a boomerang.

Stashinsky killed Bandera and before that he had killed Lev Rebet. But then he fell in love with a German woman and began to collaborate with the West. There was a trial. He was sentenced to nine years and subsequently he was released. He was pardoned. But there was so much fuss about it, and the Soviet Union and the Politburo got it hard. Shelepin, who was State Security Minister at that time and who awarded Stashinsky with an order, got his share of it too. All this was in the press.

So the experience of political killings abroad -- it's easier to kill inside the country.

Anchor: Then what are the motives of the Qatar authorities who are suspecting and who have actually accused -- official charges were brought against the two Russian special agents, or shall we call them special service officers -- of having been involved in the killing of Yandarbiyev?

Lyubimov: There may be different motives. If they are officially known as representatives of special services, there are many Russian official representatives abroad now, and in America there are official representatives of FSB or from the intelligence service.

Anchor: They are security officers and so on.

Lyubimov: I don't know about those people who were detained. But now it is a matter of applying pressure so as to put the blame at the FSB door and to arrest those two so that Litvinenko and people like him, Berezovsky and all that rag, tag and bobtail could have their theses confirmed.

Anchor: So you think that pressure was exerted on Qatar authorities. If yes, what kind of?

Lyubimov: It seems to me it comes from those who would like to organize a hullabaloo around the killing of Yandarbiyev.

Anchor: Mikhail Petrovich, let us try to theorize and rationalize about who could that be.

Lyubimov: Well, firstly, we have foreign opposition. People like Litvinenko, Berezovsky, Dubov and Rybkin who has joined them --

Anchor: You think that opposition people of this level can influence the authorities of the country?

Lyubimov: I don't know how they make their influence felt. Maybe they have organized it all themselves. At any rate, there was the mysterious disappearance of Rybkin. They profit from this because one of the lines of propaganda waged by Berezovsky and Co., says that we have arbitrary security services who do what they want. This is the line they follow.

Now as to Litvinenko, when Berezovsky was in power, he appeared on television and described the uncovering of the plot against Berezovsky. The message was that if you wanted to kill Berezovsky in Moscow, you could eliminate him just like that and nobody would do so much as to open his mouth.

Anchor: In other words, you agree, for instance, with the head of the Duma committee on international affairs Konstantin Kosachev who describes this as a political order.

Lyubimov: I don't know. It is very difficult to try to guess. So far we don't know the personalities of those who have been arrested, what are their names? Do you have the names?

Anchor: No, of course, there are no names.

Lyubimov: Why of course?

Anchor: Moreover, I will tell you what the Russian ambassador to Qatar says. It is a quotation: "The detained have already been visited by the person in charge of the consular office of the Russian embassy in Qatar. There are no complaints on their part concerning the conditions in which they are being kept." As to the question of whether the third person detained sent back home, Kudryavtsev, who is the ambassador, answered he would like to abstain from answering the question. "For the time being he is kept inside the embassy. And as to how the question will be resolved subsequently, I would like to avoid raising this question for the moment." He did not answer the questions as to whether any charge has been presented to that man. Why are there so many secrets?

Lyubimov: I don't know. Probably we have to ask the ambassador in Qatar.

Anchor: Is he not consulting the foreign intelligence service or mass media?

Lyubimov: I assume that there should be a resident chief of the intelligence there although now many "residentura" points have been closed. In general, there are many things that are unclear in this case. This is in the way the press is presenting it and how the Qatar authorities are presenting it. Everything is quite unclear. Maybe they met with some of the killers. This can be admitted as a possibility, can't it? This can happen. There may have been some meeting with some Mr. X, who may be a Chechen, who planted a bomb in the car. But it is just my guess work. When such statements are made, all this should be substantiated. So far, I don't see any substantiation.

Anchor: Now look, on 18 and 19, or rather on the night from 18 to 19 February those officials of the Russian special services were detained by Qatar special services. They had carried out the operation. I do not discuss the procedural aspect of the situation, as to whether all this was observed correctly or with violations. So, on the night from 18 to 19 February it all happened and today it is February 26. At about one o'clock at night on Foreign Ministry site there finally appeared information to the effect that two officials of Russian special services have been detained in Qatar. Why did it take so long?

Lyubimov: One should first and foremost ask the minister, comrade Ivanov. And I will tell you why. It is because they tried to harmonize the texts, they all shuddered and got afraid. So they were busy agreeing on the texts.

Anchor: The slow response of Moscow in solving such problems --

Lyubimov: Why Moscow? Moscow is just a collection of different departments. There have been clashes of some interests. Then it all has to be thrashed out with the President. Which is not simple and he is busy. And then they thought whether it might not do harm to the presidential campaign. So, I think it is the usual story. They are bureaucrats. Of course, it is strange but what can one do? They call it red tape.

Anchor: In this case the bureaucratic procrastination does much more harm to the interests and the image --

Lyubimov: Without a doubt and this has also been the case in the past. Why did the Qatar authorities arrest them right away but why didn't they tell anything to the press?

Anchor: There were reports that two people were detained suspected of murdering Yandarbiyev, looking like Europeans. This was how it was phrased.

Lyubimov: But why do you think there was such a "winded" description on the part of Qatar? I understand that our officials are slow on the uptake, but what about them there? They have the Sheikh there. I don't know who is the head there in Qatar. But it is also surprising, incidentally, that they spoke about the people looking like Europeans. Why not say Russian? Who are Europeans? But Chechens also have a European appearance.

Anchor: What do you think, can Russia take the road of Israel in the current political situation? Or must it follow the road of Israeli special services?

Lyubimov: I don't know. In principle, it can take that road. Now war is in progress. Our generals can be killed. Romanov is still bed-ridden. But the instigators, especially the vicious enemy of Russia as Yandarbiyev must not be touched by us. Anchor: But Mikhail Petrovich, Yandarbiyev was not tried or convicted.

Lyubimov: What do you mean by "tried"?

Anchor: Even Bandera was convicted on a court decision.

Lyubimov: Well, they tried and convicted Bandera but they didn't try Lev Rebet and as to Trotsky, there was no trial at all. He was quietly killed and that was it.

Anchor: So you think that trying people who have been announced to be terrorists, and if they have been announced to be terrorists they should be destroyed whether inside the country or outside.

Lyubimov: I do not stick to this view. The war is on. They do not issue any court verdicts concerning our military, they just kill them. So, we must act in the same way. If I were the chief, I would allow the pursuit of foreign operations, especially considering that the Chechen diasporas are very strong in many countries. And this would be upon agreement with the Americans. This would be part of the struggle with terrorism on the international scale.

Anchor: This is a very strong statement, Mikhail Petrovich.

Lyubimov: It may be strong, but look at how the Americans are going about doing it.

Anchor: And how are the Americans doing it?

Lyubimov: How are they doing it? They bomb something out.

Anchor: But does Washington permit itself now to act the way the Israeli special services are acting?

Lyubimov: But Washington doesn't need to do it. Do you not remember that quite recently they have been applying violent solutions. How they acted in regard to Noriega. He is still in jail in the area of Panama Canal. They caught him, they brought him and they put him in jail. There was of course the trial, they accused him of drug traffic and so on. The Americans go out and do it straight away. Although I would say that I don't like their experience. It is quite a universal experience, when it comes to the US interests, and we all know that the US interests are all around the world, they are everywhere.

I think that there are US interests even in Moscow. But they act very resolutely. But I don't think this is correct. Do you remember the bombings they had organized in Libya? It was quite a long time ago. There was a military attack and people died.

Anchor: I detect a contradiction in what you said. On the one hand, you say that one should act tough, like the United States or the Israeli special services, for example. But on the other hand, you think that this is not quite right.

Lyubimov: No, looking at this case, I see no proof of FSB or SVR having a hand in it.

Anchor: And (inaudible)...

Lyubimov: If you ask me, I see no logic. That's not the way to kill, leaving tracks. Nobody does that. Arresting some kind of special representatives is nonsense. But my personal view is that the fight against international terrorism should be pursued in this way. Together with the Americans and the British, we should destroy the main terrorists. For example, bin Laden. We should carry out a joint operation. I don't know just how feasible it is, but still. I think this is what one means by cooperation in the fight against international terrorism.

Anchor: Do you personally believe it is possible to destroy people declared to be terrorists without a trial? If yes, dial 995- 8121, if no, 995-8122. You have five minutes to place your calls. And Lyubimov, a writer and former spy, is in the studio and he will comment on the results of the poll.

I understand that your answer, Mikhail Petrovich, is yes.

And once again, what is your motivation?

Lyubimov: I think that as long as terrorists keep killing our people, officers, generals, soldiers, it is our right and duty to kill them.

Anchor: So, you would recommend our special services to act tough and to carry out special operations in and outside Russia.

Lyubimov: Yes, in exceptional cases, as regards abroad, I think we should bring back the practices of the Stalin times.

Anchor: What do you mean by an exceptional case?

Lyubimov: Well, war inside the country.

Anchor: The Chechen war?

Lyubimov: Yes, the Chechen war. This is an exceptional case.

Anchor: Let us hear some of the calls that we have received from our listeners.

Q: Good day, my name is Dmitry. I answered your question in the negative.

Anchor: Why?

Q: Well, in this case I myself could well be covered by such a definition. Who determines whether you are a terrorist or not? Who has the right to declare a person a terrorist and then destroy him?

Lyubimov: Well, what does it mean declaring a person to be a terrorist? How can you describe a band of people who attack our soldiers, fire on them and kill them? This is not about declaring. It's a war.

Anchor: So, the war justifies any means?

Lyubimov: In this case it is a war and it justifies terror.

Q: I do not think that the argument is convincing enough. If a war is on, it's a war. Then we have to declare that we are at war.

Anchor: Thank you for your question. Next question.

Q: Good day, my name is Andrei. I think it should have been done a long time ago.

Anchor: In other words, you agree with Mikhail Petrovich Lyubimov?

Q: Well, by and large I do. The question is whether we have the resources. Because our services, both intelligence and the special services, have been totally decimated during these past fifteen years and I doubt that they can be quickly restored.

Anchor: Andrei, doesn't it seem to you odd that if a country is at war, you can be declared a terrorist and kill without trial?

Q: Declaring me to be a terrorist? I think we are talking about odious individuals whose names have appeared in the news for years and who -- and it has been proven in many cases because sometimes they themselves make videos of how they treat Russian servicemen, and, incidentally, civilians. By the way, the war in Chechnya -- for some reason nobody says it -- began not with the introduction or troops or Sevastyanov's provocation in 1994, but with the genocide of the Russian people. These were quiet murders of Russian people who lived in Chechnya. Tens of thousands of them, only the authorities did not reveal it. And then when the 1994 situation arose, the authorities practically had nothing to tell the people. And people are just wondering why did we have to go in?

And think of the hundreds of train robberies, attacks on villages in the Stavropol Territory. Nobody mentions it. And Dudayev's hysterical screams that he will bomb the nuclear installations in Russia. For some reason, nobody mentions this. So, the impression is that Russia all of a sudden committed aggression against its own people. In fact, preparation had been under way for some time and Dudayev had international ties with terrorists.

Anchor: I understand your position, Andrei. Thank you. We have already received more than 3,000 calls and a very interesting picture emerges. But we still have time for one more call.

What is your name?

Q: My name is Ruket. Unfortunately, I didn't quite understand who your guest is. But I am a constant listener of Ekho Moskvy.

Anchor: Well, I'll tell you, Ruket. Our quest is Mikhail Lyubimov.

Q: Of course, I gave a negative answer to your question and I would like to ask, what about the generals? The generals have not been killed and when a general is killed, it is a provocation of the Russian special services. I have no doubt about it. I live in the area and I know it. I do not live in Chechnya, but I live nearby. Second, don't these contract soldiers kill or rape? And I am surprised at the reaction of some listeners: odious figures. Odious figures are having a comfortable life abroad. So, the special services are definitely involved. I do not believe that these explosions are staged by Chechens. And even if there are suicide bombers, they are people who have been brainwashed and turned into zombies by the special services. So far, I have not seen any suicide bombers alive. For example, in the Nord Ost case.

Anchor: I must tell you that we have in the studio Mikhail Lyubimov, a writer and former intelligence man. Do you have any comment?

Lyubimov: Well, this is the same spiel as we hear from Litvinenko and Berezovsky claiming that it is all the fault of the Russian special services which blow up their own houses and kill their own generals. All this is provocation.

Anchor: But is this a plausible point of view?

Lyubimov: Well, there are a lot of different points of view. But I categorically disagree with this.

Anchor: It is 15:44 Moscow time. It is time to announce the results of our poll. We have received 3,538 calls in five minutes. Mikhail Petrovich, can you guess, how the votes have been divided?

Lyubimov: I think, most support my viewpoint. About 70 percent.

Anchor: Well, with your talents, Mikhail Petrovich. 56 percent of the callers think that it is not right to destroy people without a trial by just declaring them terrorists. The opposite view is expressed by 44 percent of the callers. Thank you, Mikhail Petrovich.