Johnson's Russia List #7163 1 May 2003 davidjohnson@erols.com A CDI Project www.cdi.org [Contents: 1. Reuters: St Petersburg anniversary facelift generates criticism. 2. Interfax: Polls show 5 parties could be elected to Duma. 3. Interfax: Gorbachev Denies Allegations of Misappropriation of Funds. 4. Reuters: Russia official seeks strong US trade ties post Iraq. 5. Erik Herront: Updated Web Site, Guide to Politics in East Central Europe and Eurasia http://www.ku.edu/~herron 6. Harvard Crimson: David Rochelson, Economics Expert, Head of Russian Center Dies. (Abram Bergson) 7. Moscow News: Sergei Roy, Fighter-Missionaries for Russia? 8. Kennan Institute event summary: Ukraine Between the Elections (2002-04): Opportunities and Pitfalls Ahead. 9. www.fednews.ru: TV INTERVIEW WITH YABLOKO LEADER GRIGORY YAVLINSKY ITOGI TVS SUNDAY PROGRAM WITH YEVGENY KISELYOV. 10. www.fednews.ru: RADIO INTERVIEW WITH CPRF LEADER GENNADY ZYUGANOV EKHO MOSKVY RADIO.] ******** #1 FEATURE-St Petersburg anniversary facelift generates criticism By Ron Popeski ST PETERSBURG, Russia, May 1 (Reuters) - The governor of St Petersburg becomes very irritated at suggestions that he is not doing all he can to ready Russia's second city for its lavish 300th anniversary this month. "Get over here and look at this," Vladimir Yakovlev, standing by a display of city projects, snaps at a reporter who dared to ask about reports of incompetence and corruption. "We're tackling things as best as we can. There are so many things to be done in this city. We can't do everything at once." With President Vladimir Putin due to host a prestigious gathering of world leaders in his home town at the end of this month, the onus has been on the governor to prove that he can deal with the city's numerous problems and put on a good show. Leaders of G8 industrialised countries, who admitted Russia to their ranks as a full member last year, will gather for two days at a tsarist palace on the Gulf of Finland being renovated virtually from scratch -- but still unfinished. Altogether 45 world leaders are expected, with Moscow authorities pumping in 40 billion roubles ($1.3 billion) to spruce up the city and stage a worthy party. Workers are only beginning to dismantle plastic sheeting shrouding showcase buildings in the city founded on marshland in 1703 by Tsar Peter the Great as a "window on Europe." Scaffolding has only just been removed from around the Alexander Column in the vast Palace Square commemorating Russia's 1812 victory over Napoleon. But much remains to be done. Still under repair are the 18th century Peter and Paul fortress, burial place of tsars on the river Neva and the Admiralty building on the opposite bank. Much of the riverside Winter Palace, focal point of the Bolshevik revolution and home to the Hermitage's vast art collection, is undergoing a major face-lift. Other projects, like restoring the Smolny Cathedral outside the city government headquarters, have been postponed to ease tension on tight deadlines. FEVERISH ACTIVITY AT THE PALACE Outside town at the Konstantinovsky Palace, there is plenty of resolve -- and feverish activity -- as planners urge a workforce of 7,000 to press on to the wire to emulate the elegance of several other 18th century residences in the city. Begun in 1720 by Peter, who had little regard for expense or human life in undertaking grandiose projects, it was handed by later tsars to lesser relatives in favour of residences further down the Gulf of Finland. In Soviet times, it served as a school and then a merchant seamen's college and suffered severe damage as the area repeatedly changed hands in the 900-day Nazi siege of the city then known as Leningrad. The ceiling collapsed in a 1986 fire. But this site, brimming with guards checking even visitors accompanied by site architects, is funded by sponsorship money channelled through the federal government in Moscow. Some jobs are proceeding round the clock. Long queues of heavy trucks dump cargoes of gravel and earth and immediately set off for further loads. Bemused soldiers struggle with heaps of marble floor slabs up a grand stairway still covered in sheeting as restoration experts put craftsmen through their paces in two vast halls. A dozen restorers perched on hoarding beneath chandeliers meticulously paint gold leaf on wall motifs, oblivious to the din of saws and chisels. Full-length mirrors and four fireplaces stand in a side room awaiting installation. Outside, landscapers and engineers are completing a network of canals and fountains extending to the Gulf of Finland. GOVERNOR PAYS THE PRICE Back in St Petersburg, Yakovlev has paid the political price for a host of unresolved problems going far beyond the anniversary and the president's drive to portray the grandeur of his home town to the world. Disliked intensely by Putin, he abandoned a plan to run for a third term next year after the Kremlin leader appointed a regional prefect seen as a heavy favourite to take over his job. Many thousands of St Petersburg's 4.5 million residents remain in "communal" flats with shared bathrooms and kitchens, elegant buildings on its much-loved canals are in disrepair and suburbs not benefiting from funds become ever more dilapidated. Streets are riddled with potholes. Two major projects intended to relieve city centre congestion have been repeatedly delayed -- a ring road around the city and restoration of a metro line blocked by a landfall. Worse, Russia's financial watchdog, the Audit Chamber, accused Yakovlev's administration of failing to account for some $15 million earmarked for roads. Further scandals surround the construction of a railway station many residents say is not needed. Yakovlev, still one of the country's most powerful regional bosses, denies any wrongdoing and dismisses the allegations. "Go and have a look on the street yourself," he told reporters. "Just because work is still proceeding on these projects it does not mean they won't be completed." Public opinion is split down the middle on Yakovlev. Some residents say high-profile preparations mask real problems, while others praise his honesty in tackling a difficult legacy. "We should not be unfair about the governor," said Alexander Skvortsov, a retired builder. "There are certainly problems, but let's not forget this place was built on a swamp. And unlike Muscovites, St Petersburgers are genuinely proud of their city." Yakovlev incurred the president's animosity in 1996 by challenging St Petersburg mayor Anatoly Sobchak -- Putin's mentor while he worked in his native city and one of the main liberal advocates of the final days of Soviet rule. Sobchak was defeated by Yakovlev in a subsequent election and when he died of a heart attack in 2000, Putin told mourners he had been "killed." Yakovlev easily won re-election three years ago. Putin's bid to have trusted aide Valentina Matviyenko run against the governor ended in her humiliating withdrawal from the race. But with Matviyenko's appointment as prefect last month, observers see her as a sure bet for next year's gubernatorial election -- now that the incumbent has ruled himself out. The elegant and sometimes haughty Matviyenko, the most prominent of Russia's handful of women politicians, has praised the governor for bowing out graciously and quietly set about grappling with local issues, including the celebrations. "We should not let criticism of preparations overshadow the celebration," she told reporters. But, perhaps with one eye on voters next year, she added: "I do not think, however, that all our residents' hopes have been met. Everyone wants his own area done up properly. And we are seeing only the start of the job." But prominent city figures have tended to be tolerant of the way in which Yakovlev has approached the celebrations. "The governor is naturally worried because much of the criticism is political and directed at him," said Mikhail Piotrovsky, director of the Hermitage Museum. "And he often gets blamed for mistakes made a very long time ago." (Additional reporting by Konstantin Trifonov) ******** #2 Polls show 5 parties could be elected to Duma MOSCOW. April 30 (Interfax) - Only five parties would have chances to be elected to the Russian State Duma if elections were held next Sunday. This information comes from a poll of 1,600 Russians conducted by the All-Russian Public Opinion Survey Center (VTsIOM) in late April. The poll shows that the Communist Party would receive 28% of the vote, and Unified Russia 21%. In a similar poll that VTsIOM conducted in March, the gap between the two was even larger, as 31% of respondents then supported the Communist Party, against 21% backing Unified Russia. The April poll also showed the Liberal Democratic Party (LDPR) would obtain 7% (the same as in March), the Union of Right Forces 6% (6%), and Yabloko 6% (5%). All other parties and organizations would not overcome the 5% barrier for entering the Duma. Over half of Russians - 53% - would go to polling stations if Duma elections were held next Sunday. Another 28% would not vote, and 17% have not yet decided whether to vote or not. Meanwhile, 40% of Russians believe it would be better for the country if none of the political parties obtains an absolute majority in the Duma. This way, any bill should would require them to coordinate their positions. However, 33% of respondents take the opposite view - they would like one party to obtain a majority in the Duma. ******* #3 Gorbachev Denies Allegations of Misappropriation of Funds MOSCOW. April 29 (Interfax) - Former USSR President Mikhail Gorbachev has flatly denied some media accusations that he misappropriated funds during his term as Soviet president. "The South Korean President's charity is alleged to have been a bribe, as has the Nobel prize, allegedly surpassing the usual sum ten times over. I have even been linked with the Baldin collection," Gorbachev remarked. He submitted a letter from USSR Foreign Economic Bank Chairman, dated July 11, 1991, reporting where the Nobel prize money had gone. Gorbachev listed six medical institutions in Russia, Ukraine, and Belarus where a total of $1.11 was invested. He also showed documents proving the transfer of his various awards for charity. "And the person who has donated at least $2.5 million of his awards turns out to be a bribe-taker," said Gorbachev. Recounting the $100,000 check from the South Korean President in 1991, the former Soviet leader said the decision was made to remit the money to the Bryansk region to help Chernobyl victims. Gorbachev reported to have turned the check over to the presidential administration's property management chief Boldin, in whose safe the check was subsequently discovered. Gorbachev recalled that the State Duma had asked the Prosecutor General's Office to clear up the controversy and reported to have met to discuss the issue on April 1, 2003 with Nikolai Atmonyev, deputy chief of the Prosecutor General's Department for Investigating Especially Important Cases. "I gave all clarifications, even though they have not completed the examination of the issue in full yet," said Gorbachev. The ex-president also denied allegations about the conclusion of a Soviet-American agreement on a division line in the Bering Strait. "Some Duma deputies even wanted the Prosecutor General's Office to initiate a criminal case, but the lower chamber considered this impossible due to the lack of any grounds," said Gorbachev. He called the accusations leveled at him slanderous, "remarkably careless and possibly ordered by those who had themselves been caught stealing," Gorbachev said. ******** #4 Russia official seeks strong US trade ties post Iraq By Richard Cowan WASHINGTON, April 30 (Reuters) - A senior Russian official arrived in Washington on Wednesday in hopes of ending friction with the Bush administration over Moscow's opposition to the U.S.-led war on Iraq. Deputy Prime Minister Alexei Gordeyev, who also serves as Russian farm minister, told reporters that his visit was "very important because it is right after the Iraq conflict." He added that it was now "important for Russia to stress trade relations with the United States," a message he said he would deliver personally to Vice President Dick Cheney. The Bush administration appears to be rewarding its allies in the war against Iraq, while punishing some of those who opposed combat without U.N. approval. For example, a U.S.-Singapore free-trade agreement will be wrapped up promptly, while there's no indication that a similar pact with Chile will be signed even though negotiations are complete. Also, the Bush administration is trying to hurry along a free-trade agreement with Australia, a coalition partner in Iraq. Many U.S. farmers staunchly oppose the agreement. U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell has said France would face the consequences of its vocal opposition to the war. Russia is working to become a member of the World Trade Organization. But it is unlikely to do so until the U.S. Congress repeals a Cold War-era law, known as Jackson-Vanik, which places some restraints on U.S.-Russia trade. There has been no sign that Congress plans to move that initiative along anytime soon, nor has the Bush administration been clamoring recently to lift Jackson-Vanik, even though it has recognized that the law has outlived its usefulness. Speaking to reporters through a translator shortly after arriving, Gordeyev insisted Moscow and Washington "treated the government of Saddam Hussein the same" but differed over whether U.N. approval was needed to wage war to oust Iraqi President Saddam Hussein. Gordeyev is the first high-level Russian official to visit the United States since the Iraq war. Besides meeting with Cheney, Gordeyev is scheduled to talk with Agriculture Secretary Ann Veneman. On Friday, the two are supposed to sign an agreement to cooperate on farm issues. U.S.-Russian trade ties have been strained because of a long-running dispute over poultry, with Moscow blocking American shipments repeatedly over the past year or so for what they said was sanitary reasons. The poultry problem may also have contributed to Congress being reluctant to repeal Jackson-Vanik. But last month, the two governments announced they had worked out their differences. Wednesday, Gordeyev told reporters that 65-70 percent of American poultry processing facilities have been cleared to ship product to Russia. Russia has been a huge market for low-cost U.S. poultry, buying more than 1 million tons annually. But in an effort to protect domestic producers, Russia has set new quotas on all meat imports. For poultry, the United States has an export quota of 553,500 tons for May-December. ******** #5 Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 From: Erik HerronSubject: Updated Web Site I would like to welcome readers of JRL to the revised version of Erik Herron's Guide to Politics in East Central Europe and Eurasia (http://www.ku.edu/~herron), based at the University of Kansas. The site is designed to facilitate research on politics and economics in the region. It has been renamed to recognize that we are entering a "post post-communist" world. The 3,000+ links have been entered into a database that allows users to search geographically and thematically. I have added other features, including an ADA-compliant text-only version, site submission form and new content. Please explore the site and send comments and suggestions. Erik S. Herron Assistant Professor University of Kansas Department of Political Science 1541 Lilac Lane, 310 Blake Hall Lawrence, KS 66044-3177 Office: (785) 864-9027 Fax: (785) 864-5700 eherron@ku.edu Home Page: http://people.ku.edu/~eherron Guide to Post-Communist States: http://www.ku.edu/~herron ******** #6 Harvard Crimson April 30, 2003 Economics Expert, Head of Russian Center Dies By DAVID B. ROCHELSON Contributing Writer Abram Bergson, an acclaimed economist who put aside plans to become a professional artist and went on to revolutionize the way the West understood Soviet economics, died last Wednesday in Cambridge. He was 89. Bergson, who became the head of Harvard’s Russian Research Center in 1956, was a particularly influential consultant for the U.S. Office of Strategic Services during the Cold War years, when he analyzed what many assumed to be inflated Soviet economic statistics to try to accurately determine that nation’s Gross National Product. His mastery of Soviet economics garnered Bergson top advisory positions, impressed colleagues and sometimes intimidated students. “Especially at the beginning of the study of the Soviet economy, Abe Bergson was sort of an oracle. He knew more about it than anyone else,” said Robert M. Solow ’44-’47, a Nobel laureate and emeritus professor of economics at MIT who worked closely with Bergson. James S. Duesenberry, a professor emeritus of economics at Harvard who had lunch with Bergson once a week for many years, said Bergson also stood out in more human ways. “He was a very modest person, never tooted his own horn,” Duesenberry said. “He was the kind of person who asked you your opinion before he started giving his—which is unusual in our profession.” Though many referred to Bergson as “Honest Abe” behind his back, Marshall I. Goldman, a former student, recalled a bet among his fellow graduate students about who would be the first to call the esteemed professor “Abe” in person. Goldman said he still found Bergson “intimidating,” even after he went on to become the associate director of the research center once directed by Bergson, which was renamed the Davis Center for Russian and Eurasian Studies last year. “You are always his former student, something you never graduate from,” Goldman said. But he added that during his student days, Bergson was more accessible than most professors at the time, hosting open houses and a weekly Russian table. “In those days a professor didn’t normally provide you with much face time,” Goldman said. Bergson entertained ambitions of becoming a professional artist until a gamble by his brother helped him win a scholarship to Johns Hopkins University, according to his daughter, Judith Bergson. Gus Bergson, then an undergraduate at Hopkins, sometimes played poker with the university’s faculty members, she said. In one game, he staked his hand on a promise from a professor to tutor Abram, then 16. Gus Bergson won, and the tutoring helped Bergson win the only scholarship Hopkins offered that year. He graduated in three years and went on to earn his masters degree and doctorate from Harvard. Though the admission to Hopkins forced Bergson to put aside his artistic aspirations, he never lost his passion for art—particularly Vincent Van Gogh—Judith Bergson said. “He had this amazing color sense,” she said. “He’s different from other economists in that he really took an interest in his environment.” Before he established himself at the forefront of the study of Soviet economics, Bergson won acclaim for the “Bergson social welfare function,” according to Paul A. Samuelson, an MIT professor emeritus of economics and Nobel laureate who described Bergson as his “oldest and dearest friend at Harvard.” Though Bergson’s work probably placed him on many Nobel “short lists,” Samuelson said, a misunderstanding perpetuated in the economics literature may have cost him the prize. But Samuelson, himself a Nobel Laureate, added that the fact that Bergson never won a Nobel doesn’t mean he was undeserving. “People who don’t get the Nobel Prize are just as good as the people who do get it,” he said. “There’s a lot of luck in those things.” Bergson leaves behind his wife, three daughters, a sister and three grandchildren. ******** #7 Moscow News April 30-May 6, 2003 Fighter-Missionaries for Russia? By Sergei Roy Herostratos earned everlasting notoriety by burning down the temple of Ephesus. "Artist" Kulik made a name for himself by defecating on the clean floor in front of a painting at a museum. Journalist Osetinsky is apparently following in the footsteps of the latter, besmirching the whole of Russia's population, calling them a bunch of savages, "Mowglis" that have to be forcibly taught to use knife and fork (Izvestia, 28 April 2003). According to the writer, Russia is "half-paralyzed, wallowing in thievery, savagery and mental deficiency of the majority of the population." The people of Russia could not be trusted to build democracy and achieve economic success, as "the Soviet years had completely destroyed their brains, their human initiative and creative ingenuity." Americans should therefore send to Russia "hundreds of thousands of honest economic fighter-missionaries," like they did after World War II in Germany. Somebody has to carry the white man's burden, you see: "the superpowers' true mission is to raise the world to their own level - by means of force, if need be!" I won't comment on the language used by Mr. Osetinsky, as no comment - apart from a sharp slap in the face - would be adequate. I mean a slap in the face as administered to hysterical women throwing insults about, to bring them to their senses. For that is what Mr. Osetinsky's trademark style is - hysterical, exclamatory, puerile, very much like his solutions for global problems - nuclear weapons as a means of combating radical Islamism, "another Hiroshima," or, as in the present case, what amounts to an American occupation of Russia as a means of building democracy here (Mr. Osetinsky is awfully sorry Americans are currently engaged in a similar pursuit in Iraq - instead of coming over here, one presumes). The substance of the Osetinsky proposal is so Mowgli-ish as to defy rational comment, too. If it were not printed in Izvestia, it would not merit more than a derisive snort. However, Izvestia being what it is - unarguably the most respected and respectable paper in Russia, the flagship of the Russian printed media, so to speak - one has to take whatever comes from that quarter seriously. This bit of journalism, however cheap, lunatic and weird, apparently either reflects the opinion of a significant sliver of its readership or some arcane scheme brewing in the minds of its oligarchic owner or owners. So, just a few questions to whoever is behind this curious trial balloon. Where would the U.S. recruit those hundreds of thousands of "honest economic fighter-missionaries"? Not among the managerial talent of Enron Corp. and similar institutions, whose name is legion, by any chance? Are these missionaries going to instill here the same kind of ethical principles they practice at home? It looks quite likely, for we all remember the scandal surrounding the fraudulent doings of some transatlantic advisers to the Russian government a few years ago, while others were content with paying themselves exorbitant salaries out of the Russian budget. As for the managerial competence of these missionaries, real, not imaginary, we've had enough experience of that, too: The monetarist policies of the "Chicago boys" of Gaidar's and subsequent governments, guided by Jeffrey Sachs and the like, came to fruition in the 1998 crisis, with Russia defaulting on its debts. Another pertinent question: Once those missionaries are here, what will they do? What tasks could they solve? What are the critical issues begging to be resolved, and how could the hypothetical apostles of market and democracy help to solve them? Ask any economist, or even any rational, non-Osetinsky type journalist around here, what currently ails Russia most. The answers may vary, but some things stick out a mile: (a) the servicing and repayment of crippling debts incurred by the "Chicago boys," and before that, by the "best German" of all time, Mikhail Gorbachev; (b) capital flight to the tune of some $20 billion a year; (c) the population's distrust of the government and the banking system, in view of which the citizens' savings, amounting at a conservative estimate to some $80 billion, stay firmly "under the mattress" instead of being invested in the economy; (d) perhaps the knottiest and most explosive of all, the predatory exploitation by a few tycoons of what is known as the natural resources rent that ought by rights to go to all of the country's population. There is a host of other troubles, but solve these or any one of these problems, and Russia would be sitting pretty. Now, would the arrival of those hundreds of thousands of fighter-missionaries help resolve any of these issues? Problem (a) needs no missionaries, it only wants the will of the U.S. to write off some of Russia's debts, say, those dating from Soviet times. Do we hear of any U.S. intention to do so? Don't make me laugh. The latest we've heard on the subject of debts is America's powerfully expressed desire for Russia to write off Iraq's debts to this country instead. Like Putin put it, somebody has to pay for the shooting and the looting - why not Russia? Capital flight, now. Would American economists persuade Russian tycoons of various degree of criminality to stop salting away their ill-gotten wealth in offshore havens? Would they be so altruistic? After all, that wealth does not actually stay in the vaults, you know; it buys stocks, bonds and other "financial instruments" - which, in this age of globalization, somehow inevitably tend to be concentrated, and played with, on a certain street in New York. Solving problem (c) would amount to a de-dollarization of Russia, at least a partial one. To set a goal like that, Osetinsky's economic missionaries would have to be not just altruists but suicidal altruists: It is a well-known fact that there is more U.S. cash in the FSU than in the States; by keeping their savings in dollars, FSU citizens provide credit to the U.S. Should they call in all that credit, that might not fatally cripple the U.S. financial system, but no right-thinking American politician would contemplate or allow such a development. That's for one thing. For another, from-under-the-mattress money invested in the Russian economy might produce results that would appear nightmarish to any U.S. economist or politician: Russians might learn to produce enough drumsticks of their own and say No to American poultry, and that's just one of the more innocent examples - they might even think of investing in better defenses! Problem (d) is an essentially political one, and no amount of economic savvy or idealism on the part of wandering missionaries can help solve it. It is for the Russian elite to come to its senses and do something about it before it resolves itself in the 1917 mode. So my response to Mr. Osetinsky's inspired proposal is a bit like that of many Brits in the 1950s. There was a popular slogan at the time: "Keep Britain tidy," with posters to that effect pasted all over the place. As often as not, you'd find scrawled underneath: "Get rid of the Yanks." ******** #8 Kennan Institute event summary Ukraine Between the Elections (2002-04): Opportunities and Pitfalls Ahead April 7, 12:00 In a recent meeting at the Kennan Institute, Sergiy Komisarenko, President of the Ukrainian Institute for Peace and Democracy discussed recent developments in Ukrainian politics. According to Komisarenko, Ukraine still does not have an effective, stable political system. He explained that as evidenced by the results of the latest parliamentary election, opposition parties in Ukraine have very few legal rights and suffer from a lack of structure. Komisarenko discussed the leading candidates for the upcoming presidential election, and explained President Kuchma’s attempts to introduce constitutional reforms that could influence the election. Komisarenko attributed the instability of the Ukrainian political system, in part, to the country’s ineffective economic policy. He posited that “an optimal and effective macroeconomic policy can only be realized under the conditions of a stable political system with proper leadership, principle market institutions that work properly, national self-esteem, and an open and public society.” In Komisarenko’s opinion, Ukraine’s political system is ineffective because the language of the constitution severely limits the constructiveness, structure and legal rights of the political opposition. Komisarenko explained that following the 2002 parliamentary elections, many of the opposition parties encountered difficulties during and after the elections. He noted that the “so-called opposition” or the Our Ukraine faction in the parliament is composed of nearly fifty different political parties. Keeping this mixed coalition together has proven to be a difficult task for party leader and leading presidential candidate, Viktor Yushchenko. According to Komisarenko, the instability of the Ukraine political system makes it nearly impossible to predict who will be the next president of Ukraine. He listed approximately ten different people who could possibly win the upcoming election, but also warned that there are no guarantees that any of them would make it that far. He noted that Yushchenko remains the most popular person in Ukraine, but many citizens have voiced their concerns about his ability to govern effectively. Komisarenko stated that there is still a chance that the current Ukrainian president, Leonid Kuchma, may attempt to lengthen his presidential term. Komisarenko explained that according to the Ukrainian constitution, Kuchma must step down because he has served two terms. However, Kuchma has suggested several constitutional reforms to the parliament and the possibility still exists that he will try to extend his term or go onto a third term. According to Komisarenko, President Kuchma’s original plan was to find a candidate who could guarantee him security and immunity (similar to the Russian case of Yeltsin and Putin). Because no suitable candidate was found, Komisarenko continued, it appears that Kuchma has decided to constitutional reform as his next strategy. Komisarenko warned that among the many reforms proposed by Kuchma, his suggestion of making national referendum an instrument of legislation would be “disastrous for the development of democracy in Ukraine.” Komisarenko posited that another possible candidate might be former president, Leonid Kravchuk, who could be president for a third term because the constitution only stipulates that the president cannot serve for more than two consecutive terms. Komisarenko noted that Mr. Kravchuk is not very popular in eastern Ukraine, but “under the current circumstances where there is no clear candidate for the presidency, he can be such a candidate.” Komisarenko concluded by saying that while the immediate outlook does not looks positive for Ukrainian democracy, he hopes that the country can build upon its economic, agricultural and intellectual potential and introduce balance and stability into its political system. ******** #9 TITLE: TV INTERVIEW WITH YABLOKO LEADER GRIGORY YAVLINSKY [ITOGI TVS SUNDAY PROGRAM WITH YEVGENY KISELYOV, 19:00, APRIL 27, 2003] SOURCE: FEDERAL NEWS SERVICE (http://www.fednews.ru/) Anchor: Last Saturday the leaders of Yabloko announced that they would seek to force a resignation of the government. For reference, under the Russian Constitution the State Duma has the right to pass a no-confidence vote in the Cabinet of Ministers by a simple majority of 226 votes. By the way, the State Duma has never once succeeded in doing that in its history. And even to simply put the question of no confidence in the government on the agenda, one-fifth of the votes of the deputies is needed, that is, at least 90 votes. Yabloko has 17 seats in the Duma. What are they counting on? Today we have live on the line chairman of the Yabloko faction Grigory Yavlinsky. Grigory Alexeyevich, what are you going to do? Where will you get the missing votes? Yavlinsky: Happy Easter, Yevgeny Alexeyevich. Anchor: Happy Easter to you. Yavlinsky: It's a special day. As you may have noticed of late practically all the factions in the State Duma have quite explicitly criticized the government, even Unity. Even the leaders of Unity, the Minister of the Interior criticized their own government, not to speak about other factions. And the question that we have raised envisages that a review of the government's performance during the last three years be put on the agenda. In addition to what you have said, there is another circumstance to be reckoned with. This government has marked its three years in office. Considering that the President still hasn't got his Address and considering what is happening in the country and the situation in the country is generally felt by people to be unfavorable, and the government should know about it -- the crime situation, schools burning down, fires blazing, already forest fires have begun. The government is making a series of decisions that are remote from people's interests and with which they find it hard to identify. And in general the government is demonstrating total indifference to what is happening in the country which it is supposed to govern. We feel that the time has come, and this is not only our opinion, we made that decision not only based on our own ideas, but to a large extent because the 35 regions that are represented at the Yabloko bureau, its governing body, all insisted that the time has come to put some hard questions to the government: why is it so helpless? Why isn't it addressing strategic issues? How long will the internal bickering in the government continue? Why such indifference to what is happening in the country? This is the range of questions that, I think, many deputies would like to ask. I don't think it will be much of a problem to put on the agenda the question of how the government is coping with its duties. Anchor: But Gennady Zyuganov, for example, has suggested that the no-confidence vote should only be proposed if you know that this could lead to real results. And if there is no majority for a no-confidence vote, not even the 90 votes required to put the issue on the agenda, there is no point in starting the procedure. Yavlinsky: Well, as a matter of fact, -- Anchor: Do you disagree with this? Yavlinsky: Let us leave to Zyuganov's conscience what he is going to do about it. But we believe that this is a coherent evaluation of the government's performance. We have tried for a long time to convince the government regarding economic reforms, for example, regarding taxes, small and medium business, reforms of the housing and utilities sector and RAO UES. But the government is absolutely unreasonable, it is pushing through decisions that can hardly be described as competent. And besides, let me stress again that the approach to strategic issues is unprofessional. Therefore we believe it is important to give an assessment to the government's performance and this is a procedure that conforms with the laws and the Constitution. But I would like to add something. The question of the resignation of the government is not only about 226 votes in the State Duma. It is perhaps the question about a single person who can alone decide the fate of his own government. Anchor: But that does not require a no-confidence vote by the State Duma. Yavlinsky: True, but to discuss the performance of the government is very important. This is not a personal question. It is my question to Kasyanov, or Kudrin, or Gref, or to the Defense Minister who has again refused to implement the military reform, or to the Interior Minister who is not only unable to secure the lives of the deputies, but does not even see fit to express his condolences on behalf of the government. And then what happens at the Duma when the government comes there to report and explain its position on the issue -- this is very much like a farce. In other words, these are not questions to individual members of the government and this is not about personal relations. It is a totally different question. The question is much broader, it is about what the government is going to do in Russia. And it would be worth discussing it on the eve of the President's annual Address. Anchor: But you are being criticized. It has been suggested that wish such a number of votes as Yabloko commands you may declare war on England every morning, but nothing will come out of it. And it has been said that your initiative is just part of electioneering. Do you think these accusations make no sense? Yavlinsky: Hmm... Well, I think the government should always defend itself. It defends itself as best it can. As for an electioneering move, my whole life is in politics, and this is a dialogue with the constituency. To me it is very important -- Anchor: So, you wouldn't deny that by addressing your critical remarks to the government and even perhaps raising a no-confidence issues, you expect to attract part of the protest vote? Yavlinsky: I would make two points. Forcing the government to resign is not the programmatic goal of Yabloko. We do not believe that resignation of the government is the policy goal of our election campaign. We simply see the attitude of the government to what is happening in the country, we find it outrageous and we disagree with this. Anchor: Would you be prepared to join the new government if the present government were to resign? Yavlinsky: Yes, we would be prepared to consider that issue. Because we believe that the country is facing major challenges. The number of seats we have in the Duma does not permit us to form the whole government, but we would certainly be prepared to take part in the government in terms of solving the most serious tasks, the long-term tasks. As for electioneering -- Anchor: So, the members of Yabloko faction would agree to take some ministerial portfolios? Yavlinsky: We have said so many times and we are ready to say it again. Anchor: But the situation changes, so, I am asking you, what about the present situation? Yavlinsky: Yes, you are quite right. All the political forces are political forces precisely because they are -- if they are serious -- ready to assume responsibility for the solution of some of the key tasks. Anchor: And you personally? Yavlinsky: Including myself. Anchor: So, if you are offered the post of vice premier, for example, will you agree? Yavlinsky: I will discuss the issue with the person who offers it to me. It would probably be the President. Anchor: Did you have any preliminary consultations on this topic? Yavlinsky: No, I have not discussed this issue with the President. Anchor: Have you discussed it with anyone? Yavlinsky: I have not discussed it with anyone except the members of our party, of our bureau. Anchor: But recently -- you have mentioned it yourself -- the leaders of United Russia Party at their congress launched a devastating attack on the government and its chairman Mikhail Kasyanov. And perhaps your calculation is that if it comes to debating your proposal, United Russia will backtrack, will fail to be consistent and in this way you would claim that they are being disingenuous? Is this perhaps your plan? Yavlinsky: Everything is simple. Either they back the proposal to hear the government's report on its work or they do not back it and then for a while they won't be able to pretend to be criticizing the government. That applies to other factions as well. Anchor: And also the communists? Yavlinsky: The communists and all the rest. Anchor: So, you will stand to gain from this situation whatever happens? Yavlinsky: I just wanted to say that we do not treat it as a game. It is indeed a serious question for us, just as for you and the whole country. It is not the question of winning or losing a game. We do not have a hidden agenda there. Anchor: But you do go into politics, don't you? Yavlinsky: Yes, but it is politics... Anchor: I do not say that politics is a game but in politics one can gain points and lose points. Yavlinsky: Yes, in politics it is better not to make mistakes. For instance, I regret that we have discussed this question on the eve of Easter. This may probably have been a mistake on our part -- to hold party functions on such days. That is true. As regards the content of the question, I do not have any doubt on that. Indeed today we find ourselves in a situation when on any question at all there is no account rendered by the government to the State Duma or to the nation -- no account rendered to anyone. It is neither through the Defense Ministry, nor the Interior Ministry, nor the Foreign Ministry -- and I would wish to say that by far not everything is good in regard to this bloc. Anchor: But wait, Grigory Alexeyevich, are you not being insincere? The Foreign Ministry, the Interior Ministry, the Defense Ministry, a number of other ministries and departments -- these are what they call entities with an asterisk, which is to say that in the list of ministries and departments they are indicated as ministries de facto reporting directly to the President. Yavlinsky: I am not being insincere. There is no insincerity here. In form... Anchor: But no, can you ask Kasyanov or the government to account for the work of these organizations... Yavlinsky: Wait a minute. You know how one is fed up with this senselessness. It is impossible to ask an account from the main, the key ministers. The prime minister is our "semi-principal" economist, a "semi-principal" accountant. Where is the government that you may ask to answer what is going on? Where is the government that you can recommend something to? Where is the government with whom one may pursue a dialogue? Where is the government which you can even help? It is an arrangement that leads to complete irresponsibility and full inability to do anything. This is what we and you are observing today. The main feature of the government is its full inability to solve at least some issues and to move in some direction. Anchor: But wait, let us talk about the military reform. This is what you said. Or say, questions of crime control. But this is an area that Gryzlov is responsible for, if you take the war against crime, the man is appointed by the President and is answerable to him. That means that the system must probably be changed. How can one expect Kasyanov to be responsible for some failures if Gryzlov has failures in the work of the Interior Ministry? Yavlinsky: Today it is not timely to raise the question of changing the system. And in my point of view the responsibility is borne but the prime minister, as this is said in the Constitution. I prefer to act by law and by Constitution. By law and by Constitution, all these ministers are members of the government of the Russian Federation. The way their powers are distributed is a different matter. Let Kasyanov go to the President and ask the President how he should act, when they raise the issue with him that all decisions have come to a halt in say the area of army reform, military reform -- it is a very serious thing, a very serious thing. The army is not being reduced, the army is not switching over into becoming professional. They invented some six months but it is now clear that all this is absurdity while the question of a professional army has been simply brushed aside. This is already not a question of desire or reluctance. In the Interior Ministry the minister himself raises the question of complete corruption, of a huge number of Interior Ministry officials being connected with organized crime, but the question is not raised anywhere, is not examined anywhere and it is impossible to ask anyone to account for this question. In the final analysis, the government is working exactly the way it is working because nobody can ask the government to account for anything. And that is why I would like -- speaking in the State Duma -- to ask our colleagues whether we will discuss the government at all? Indeed, elections are coming soon, it is very correct that there are elections, so let us discuss the question of resignation, not resignation -- it is the next question, but let us first at least ask the government, let us pose quite intelligible questions: what is happening to the operational management of the economy? In this country in winter apartments get frozen, we have forest fires in summer and in spring. Who do we ask about this and who do we discuss these things with? Anchor: Tell me whether I understood you correctly or not: it turns out that in a certain soft form you wish to raise this question, not an immediate question that the head should be lopped off, not an immediate vote of non-confidence, but rather you wish simply to raise the question of listening to an account by the government? And only then... Yavlinsky: There is no such possibility and we are not going to raise this question as one of our colleagues says, softly, it is toughly. We are going to raise the question clearly and coherently. We will collect 90 signatures, we will table the motion of non-confidence, we will require the account from the government, we will demand the discussion of this issue. This is our position. Anchor: Well, good, and the President bears responsibility for the failures in the work of the government? Yavlinsky: The full responsibility is borne by the President. Anchor: Does it not seem to you that raising the question in this way, the way you have no formulated it, you are willy nilly taking it out of the line of fire, concentrating all your attention on the Kasyanov Cabinet? Yavlinsky: No, it is because I am asking it from those who are authorized by the Constitution and by law to be accountable for these questions. They are obligated to answer these questions. They have been appointed by the President, the President is responsible for the government that he established in the country. The State Duma is obligated to ask the government to account and only after that, meeting with the President, it will be possible to coherently repeat our position once again. For instance, we will tell our position to the President once again. Anchor: And probably the last question, the one we began with -- will you collect 90 signatures? Yavlinsky: I think it will not be a big problem. It seems to me that there is a sufficient number of people in the State Duma who are prepared to seriously discuss not individual amendments, not individual laws but are prepared to discuss the problem as a whole. Anchor: And technically, in terms of deadlines, when can this take place? Yavlinsky: We will begin collecting signatures immediately after the State Duma resumes work, which will be as the 12th and I think that before the end of May there will be a clear answer as to the support the government has in the State Duma, what factions support the policy pursued by the government or the absence of that policy, any policy, as I would formulate it, and those prepared to discuss and raise the question of non-confidence in the government. Anchor: Thank you, Grigory Alexeyevich, for your answers. In the Itogi studio our guest was Grigory Yavlinsky, leader of Yabloko, who on Saturday announced his intention to work for a non-confidence vote in the government. ******** #10 TITLE: RADIO INTERVIEW WITH CPRF LEADER GENNADY ZYUGANOV [EKHO MOSKVY RADIO, 14:00, APRIL 28, 2003] SOURCE: FEDERAL NEWS SERVICE (http://www.fednews.ru/) Anchor: Our informed guest today is the head of the Communist Party of the Russian Federation Gennady Andreyevich Zyuganov. Good day, Gennady Andreyevich. Zyuganov: Good day. Anchor: Shall we start with the good news or the bad news? Zyuganov: Suit yourself. Anchor: Let's start with the bad news. I think many of our listeners and viewers who watched various TV channels took note of the story connected with the decision of the Audit Chamber to inspect Rosagropromstroi which is headed up by a member of the presidium of the Central Committee of the CPRF, Viktor Vedmanov. And the program made no bones about the fact that the Audit Chamber, reacting to a letter from the State Duma speaker Gennady Seleznyov, is looking into the fact that 100 billion rubles went missing and implicitly the CPRF is accused of spending that money for its own needs. Gennady Andreyevich, what do you know a) what do you know about it? And b) what can you say about it? Zyuganov: Well, this is the fifth time they are carrying out an audit. As for the program Your Own House, it was launched ten years ago, and it envisages the construction, about a hundred different designs of cheap homes that a village teacher, a farm machine operator, a doctor or a dairy maid can order. We introduced that program at the Kremlin. By the way, it was presented to Putin and all the specialists involved were present. It was later considered by the government. They saw that it was a realistic program which could provide the basis for a large-scale rural construction program. By the way, of all the building agencies only Spetsstroi and Vedmanov's agency have survived. It employs 700,000 people. They operate at 10-15, at most at 20 percent capacity. But Stepashin, during the few months that he was the prime minister, endorsed that program and the Kasyanov government struck it down and did not disburse a single kopeck to finance it. They gave a little money for the development of the production basis -- without the industrial basis you cannot accomplish anything -- but they refused to implement the program. So, what is necessary is not to audit the program, but to get it up and running. Then people will be able to build cheap rural homes, get support and pay back by providing farm produce, etc. All countries in the world implement such programs. In the Oryol region this program got off the ground because Stroyev supported it and helped it along. This is an opportunity for rural construction. As for guesses, I looked yesterday -- by the way, not only Svanidze was speaking about it gleefully, but Karaulov has now been expressing worries about our party ... It is a massive campaign masterminded by Voloshin. He has appointed a person who reports to him every week. The aim of that program is to try to bring about a split in the Communist party and to discredit its leadership. This is not the first such program. In the previous elections they put the blame for all that happened in 1920s and 1930s on our party. I told them, you should take it to Yeltsin, I was born in 1944. And now they are trying to latch on to something. They have shown a house in Voronezh. I will show you thousands of houses in Moscow that are half-built. That's the way they approach construction everywhere today. By the way, many building teams in Lensk built houses, and then it took them months to get paid for them. They were decorated with medals and prized, but they weren't paid their wages. Nobody seriously attends to construction in this country. Anchor: Is it a failure of the program, for whatever reason, or is it a political action? Zyuganov: It is a political action, it is a settling of scores, it is an attempt to strike down whatever building organizations still exist in the country. If you made an audit and then went on to help so that the builders should have their order books full, so that the program should get off the ground, I am all in favor of an audit. But it should help the rural builder to survive in such conditions. But they don't lift a finger to develop construction. Anchor: So, you are absolutely sure that the money was not improperly used, the billion rubles? Zyuganov: You know very well that our party was the only organization that was audited again. Our election campaign was audited ten times. If they had found anything, they would have cited facts. You saw Karaulov sitting there and inventing things. I tell him: "You can take a report of our faction, you can take the 20 main laws, beginning from Yeltsin's privileges, the disbanding of the Federation Council, privileges to servicemen, pensions, wages down to the rejection of the referendum and you will see that everywhere we voted in favor of the working man, Unity has everywhere voted against. And instead he digs something up and starts -- Anchor: But you didn't answer my question, are you quite confident and relaxed about this -- Zyuganov: I am absolutely confident and relaxed. But if you take any concrete construction project, given the present system of organization, supervision and the rest of it, you can try to make any accusations. Anchor: Do you think that this is the start of an election campaign or is it a false start to an election campaign when dirt is being dished out little by little against one or another party leader or against all of them at once? Zyuganov: This is not an election campaign. To put it mildly, this is an outrage. And election campaign -- one should have built a political system, one should have preserved conditions for normal competition; one should have honored the law on the media; one should have given a chance to the leaders of parties and movements to report to the public. I just conducted an all-Russian protest action against Channel 2 of State television. Anchor: Well, they are listening to you now, you can say -- Zyuganov: With pleasure, but I am sure they won't show it. Anchor: Let us not insult our colleagues. Zyuganov: I am not insulting them. Dobrodeyev is a very competent man, he has six yellow telephones and each is ringing, but they just don't want to pursue an honest information policy. At least, they are not allowed to. We staged pickets in 48 territories. Each event was attended by between 2,000 and 50,000 people. People attended everywhere and they presented concrete demands. First, the opposition must have a program. Secondly, they must have air time under the law. I have prepared short videos. In January, they were run in 60 territories, in February, in 54. But in March they put a stop on it. Since March 17, you cannot get in a word edgewise on any state-run channel. How can you hold elections or prepare for elections if the deputy is not allowed to report to the public in accordance with the law on state television? We sent a deputation of 15 people to Dobrodeyev. He himself was away, I don't know whether he was afraid or whether there was some other reason. We talked with his deputy and we discussed specifically all the situations. They told us that our proposals would be given a consideration. I handed them an analysis of the information policy of the state channel. From September 1 and until today we got 2.5 percent of the air time, less than any other political organizations, and that in spite of the fact that we have 25 percent of the seats in the State Duma. Our voters pay money, state television and radio broadcasting exists on this money and for this money Unity pulls the wool over our eyes from morning till night showing us the same pictures about the Kremlin incumbents plus weather reports. It's worse than in the late Brezhnev era. They said they would consider our complaints and answer. But nothing is forthcoming. Anchor: Gennady Andreyevich, your opponents claim that you appear on every channel, that they show you providing your comments both on ORT and RTR channels and so on. Zyuganov: Alexei, this is a lie. I asked the First Channel, I met with Ernst personally, give me 30 minutes to answer the questions asked by my voters. In Pozner's program -- Anchor: Did you appear on Pozner's program? Zyuganov: Pozner is sitting and three opponents. The four of them take a minute each plus one minute for me. That is not enough time even to answer the questions they ask. And I wanted to answer the questions that are of interest to my voters. This is a common rule in any democratic country. We have no dialogue among presidential candidates so that they could come on and discuss the problem calmly. Leading parties have no chance to speak to their voters. This is not a normal situation. Anchor: But a new law has been passed. Zyuganov: As for Channel 2, I already told Dobrodeyev... I hadn't visited them for a year. I came and they were doing repairs and there are now guards there, incidentally very good looking guys who stand there and offer you not a bad reception but there is no honest information policy. That group of Surkov and Voloshin has muzzled everyone. I don't know how they still allow you to talk but soon they will make an attack on you. Anchor: Well, we have developed quite a habit. Our guest is Gennady Andreyevich Zyuganov. There is still time before the election and I think that the new law on elections which in my view is extremely strictly regulating appearances of registered candidates to the State Duma and the presidency in mass media. Zyuganov will answer some of your questions. You have voted for him. Zyuganov: Now it is not the matter that they have voted, they have even wrote down the collection of funds. Up to 50 million people vote for us from all over. We have no possibility now to go to the state radio and television. We have agreed to increase the publishing of leaflets, newspapers and many other things. We have now appealed to our electorate and they do it with pleasure, contributing 30, 40, 50 rubles each... Firstly, they come and say that the money is not yet accepted and secondly, if you put two commas not correctly and you remitted the money -- it will get spent tomorrow and it will be like it was in Norilsk: they dismissed the person quite unexpectedly. You will excuse me but it is worse here than in Africa. That is why in my opinion one has to work here. Letters were written to Veshnyakov and so on. In my opinion, he is preparing for the elections quite badly. If this goes on like this, the whole country will be engaged in court litigation. I devoted these two days to holding a seminar for legal experts. About one hundred skilled lawyers attended who are expected to defend our rights. Over this period about 1,700 trials occurred. We gained much through court decisions, we argued out much but you see it is not normal when they can find fault with any of your commas. And if someone remitted a hundred rubles and... Anchor: But wait a minute, you are the legislators so you have adopted legal rules for yourselves. Zyuganov: Excuse me please but those were adopted by a majority of the Unity. This Unity majority left the army and the military without benefits. That majority voted for unheard of privileges for Yeltsin. Let that majority now answer for this. Anchor: Now let us get back to this. Maybe the hottest theme because I think that we will still have an opportunity to talk about elections before the elections and during the election campaign. The main question is probably the question of the last weekend when the Yabloko faction of the State Duma, which is your political opponents on many political positions, decided to initiate the procedure to express a lack of confidence in the government. Is there a decision of the Communist faction, does the Communist faction have a position first on this procedure and then on the government in general? Zyuganov: Well, we are pleased that a year later the Yabloko faction has joined us. In June last year 125 deputies drafted a paper substantiating the vote of non-confidence in the course, in that government. It was published by a large circulation and officially from 125 deputies -- there were representatives of the most diverse factions -- who sent that document to each legislative assembly, to every governor and to all members of government and to Putin. They asked to consider the paper, asked to take the decision together and to form a government of national interests, a government of professionals. But they would not budge. We again return to this by the fall and we applied to every faction and to every legislature: you see how this government is working.I don't know what influenced Yavlinsky but now our positions in this sense are getting closer together and there is one position -- for an honest choice -- and he understands that there will be a lot of stealing and merciless suppressing. We have again made an application and they say that in the council they have just taken a decision. Now they have a brilliant opportunity to add to the list of 125 deputies their own 17 votes and it will be 140 odd people. Anchor: Gennady Andreyevich, it is a different procedure and please talk about the procedure. You have to get together 17 people and they have 17 people. In order to initiate discussion in the State Duma of the question on non-confidence in the government, they need 90. The question is whether or not the Communists will sign under this statement or not. Zyuganov: Just one minute, please, all the Communists have already signed. Anchor: No, now it is a new procedure, Gennady Andreyevich. Zyuganov: No new procedure: you put your signatures here and let us discuss whether or not we table it for the meeting or whether we continue working with citizens especially considering that there will be million manifestations on May 1 and 9 where they will put it directly that this government must go. The question is that 142 votes is still insufficient in order to force the government to resign. Anchor: Gennady Andreyevich, wait a second, this question is not solved in the street. Under the Russian Federation Constitution: it is either the expression of non-confidence in the State Duma or a decision by the President. I have a question to you and you still have not answered. Don't you have a decision? They will submit the document and they will begin collecting signatures, whether or not there is the faction decision -- it is a simple question for you. Zyuganov: If they are going to raise it at a State Duma meeting, let us sit together and discuss it. In my opinion, until we have gathered about 200 votes, it makes no sense to raise it in the meeting because that gray majority will push the button with the finger and there will not even be a normal discussion, as is the case today. On the other hand, if Yavlinsky, using his "record", demonstrated that the growth is not 6 percent as Kasyanov and Co. say. I asked actually how our economy and the government worked in the second quarter year. And I say that in the first quarter the entire industry produced two thermal locomotives, as many electrical trains, eleven machine tools with digital control, 32 harvesters and 584 tractors -- this is the performance of Soviet industry. In several hours. So you see the performance. And until we have expelled this government, this will cause a further destruction of machine building, metal processing, basic sectors, including the security of the people. Anchor: Well, Gennady Andreyevich, the government is not expelled by the street, the government is expelled by the State Duma and the President, under the Constitution. Zyuganov: Alexei, you are not correct. If 20 million people go out into the street on May 1 and 9 and say: go, I assure you they will fly, just not go but very many will simply fly away. Anchor: But this is not constitutional? Zyuganov: It is very constitutional, it is the will of the people. Anchor: At the elections. Zyuganov: The government is the will of the people. The citizens elected Putin, elected the deputies and the citizens can say get out. Anchor: Incidentally, Gennady Andreyevich, just one more second. The citizens can say: get out -- on December 14, at the elections so to say. As to me, I am not against a manifestation. We will now again speak about manifestations and slogans and I still wish to ask a question. There emerged a story in which, if I understood you correctly you regard it timely to pose the question of non-confidence in the government at a State Duma meeting if the number of votes is 200 or more? Zyuganov: I regard this raising of the question belated. We put these deadlines twice. The first time we voted two years ago, all closed their mouths. Anchor: And now it does not make sense, does it? Zyuganov: No, I don't, I believe that 142 votes is little but if it is 200, one may try to hold a meeting and to try to collect 226 votes. Anchor: And throw off the government? Zyuganov: Not throw off, to form a normal government. Anchor: No, no, no. First you say non-confidence then it is to throw off. Zyuganov: It may be forced to resign and a strong government could be established. This could be done. Anchor: Gennady Andreyevich, do you see a prime minister who would replace Kasyanov? Is there a man who could cope now in a dire situation, with oil prices falling and assume responsibility together with Putin? Do you have such people in your faction? Zyuganov: There aren't few of them in the country... Anchor: No, there are 150 million in the country, Gennady Andreyevich. Zyuganov: Stop, stop, stop. This country has quite a few clever and educated leaders. It is still surviving because the average link of the leaders even in this economic lawlessness and crime is somehow managing to keep the economy from falling apart and even to develop it. I told this repeatedly to Putin and I even named a whole team. I do not wish to give names here because tomorrow they will just take them out only because I named them. Anchor: Good, let us say including... Zyuganov: Well, let's take a look at the governors from the Far East, the Maritime Territory and then Ishayev who is a clever and solid economic manager, and he knows what Siberia, winter and the Far East are. If you look at Altai, there is Surikov and he is doing a lot of social construction and developing it. You take a look at the Urals, Sumin, a major region, strong and well organized. Anchor: A government of territories. Zyuganov: There are no problems. Anchor: It is not a political government. Zyuganov: What do you mean not political? Anchor: Not political. Zyuganov: I tried to persuade Putin in my time to make Stroyev the prime minister instead of sacking the whole Federation Council. And then things would improve vastly. Time was lost and the decision was not made. We have a lot of competent people. Vinogradov in Vladimir is someone for whom the center and the left and even the right vote because they understand that he is a highly qualified individual. Anchor: You have touched on a very important subject there and I don't want to miss it. Many political forces are in favor of the government being formed after the December election as a government responsible to the State Duma, and of course, to the President, but on the basis of the government majority. And you are proposing -- Zyuganov: Alexei, stop. Anchor: And you are proposing a gubernatorial majority. Zyuganov: No, no. Anchor: What is your view on this? Zyuganov: No, you got it wrong. Anchor: What do you propose then? Zyuganov: If today you look at the power system, it is absolutely wrong. It is a cripple. There is the President who spends days sitting with the ministers and giving them directions and they do nothing to fulfill his directives. This is not a presidential republic. In a presidential republic the President heads up the government and is jointly responsible with the government for everything he and they do. And then there is the parliamentary form, in which the parliamentary majority elects a government and answerable together with that government. And we have fallen into this pit, we don't have capitalism, we don't have socialism, we have a system of criminal clans working under the government which is implementing a right-wing policy and that policy is rejected by 90 percent of the citizens. So, let us repair the Constitution, let us balance the power structure, let us hold elections and then there will be a chance -- we, the Communist Party, are ready together with other patriotic forces to present a program and a team of individuals. Let us go on the air together with our opponents and let them say how they propose to solve problems and we will say how we propose to solve problems and let the citizens choose. We are ready, the Duma majority is ready to assume the full responsibility, to form a government and to answer to the citizens of our country. Anchor: So, you agree that it is desirable that the government should be responsible before the Duma. Zyuganov: It is responsible now... Kasyanov is responsible before Yeltsin. Kudrin is responsible before -- Anchor: What do you mean Yeltsin? Yeltsin is a pensioner. What are you talking about? You mean before Putin? Zyuganov: Listen, maybe before Yumashev. Kudrin is responsible before Chubais, I can continue the list. There is no normal government working as a team. Some key figures in the government are missing, there's no person responsible for the winter season... Shoigu has got rid of his duty of party building and he probably sighed with relief. He will now perhaps be on time for the next fire or perhaps see to it that plugs are changed in time so that schools do not burn. And now they have recruited Gryzlov. Just as he got the hang of his new job heading up the police. I have worked with him for ten years, I know what it is. And they told him to attend to party building. Top cop performs the role of a party functionary. What can be more idiotic for Gryzlov and for the Unity party? Any terrorist act, any disruption of public law and order can be blamed on this... I don't know why they are so dumb, why they are unable to think strategically. They can't even prepare personnel for normal work. Anchor: Gennady Andreyevich, still on the subject of elections. Parties are springing up which will contest the elections, they call themselves left-wing parties, I mean the Revival of Russia party led by Gennady Seleznyov on the one hand and we heard today that the National Bolshevik party is ready to go to the elections on the other side. How do you rate the chances of these parties? Zyuganov: Alexei, this country is very sick. One in every two persons thinks he can be a president and everyone thinks he can be a State Duma deputy. This is the root of the tragedy. There are normally three or four parties, and the rest are trying to help them. With us parties can be formed by one member of the Duma. This is ridiculous. And then there are artificially created, inflated parties. Surkov and Voloshin are sitting there and planning how much money to pump into whom. This is a travesty of the political system. Seleznyov won't be able to produce anything useful, they will inflate parties and pull the Communist Party apart. And if they want a normal governable system in the country, let the establishment party develop, the left wing has created a powerful Communist Party together with the Agrarians and other patriots. And on the right flank we never had and never will have a strong party. Zhirinovsky is the embodiment of the present-day administration. As for the right wingers, they may grab all the money and all the TV cameras, but given the situation in Russia today, they will never gain more than 10 percent of the vote. So, the real contest will be between two parties. And they are creating party after party. Even if tomorrow everyone rallies around the Russian Communist Party, you will see that these guys will set up a party of Brezhnev's grandson and some other kind of national bolshevik party or some other caricature disguised as a party of pensioners and will dupe people. Is it the case that the establishment party was not in a position to create a party structure in ten years? No it is not. And why is it changing the fifth hat in a row? Why is it putting on a different mask every day? Because it is stealing the budget, it is destroying the country, and it is doing so under different masks by duping people. Anchor: We have already said that we will resume our work on the program "There Is Also Such a Party" in the run-up to the election. We will give equal chances to all parties. Zyuganov: By the way, it was a good and a popular program. Anchor: I would like to ask you, Gennady Andreyevich, and our listeners are asking this question. They don't understand your position on the procedure of no-confidence in the government. On the one hand, they say that the government is appointed by the President and the President is responsible for its policy, but on the other hand, citing Grigory Yavlinsky yesterday in the Itogi program, they say that this offers a chance to discuss the work of the government in a certain format. Why two parties, it may be five. Zyuganov: There are two possibilities of having a discussion. One can shut oneself inside the Duma or one can take all the materials and arguments and go to the respective constituencies. We set the target of each of our candidates and incumbent deputies holding 300 meetings with members of his or her constituency every year. We have reported to 12 regions, and another 10 such visits are scheduled for May. I must say that our events are extremely popular. That is where we can be assured of support, and on May 1 and 9 we can go out into the streets and say again no to this course, no to this government. And then we will be able to persuade at least fifty more deputies and the motion can be put before a plenary session of the Duma. Anchor: I understand the logic. Now for another question. Each time you and the leaders of various parties come to the studio, I ask them the same question because this is election year. Gennady Andreyevich, what would the Communist Party regard as a successful outcome of this election? You might say that you will win 450 seats, but nobody would believe in it. What will your party consider as an electoral success? Zyuganov: Voloshin's group are gnashing their teeth because support for our party is growing with every passing month. It has topped 30 percent. In some regions, 40 or 45 percent. I think that if our people work energetically, and I demand that everyone should work in the periphery, in every village and region and present his or her program -- we have everything to show for us. We can come to the people and say, this is how our faction has worked in parliament, this is our team, these are our priority measures, this is our budget policy. Anchor: I understand, but what do you consider to be a successful result? Zyuganov: We have a real chance, the minimum target is to have a blocking vote, 150 seats in the State Duma. Anchor: Including single-mandate candidates? Zyuganov: Yes. And the maximum program -- together with allies -- to get a majority of 226 required for passing the first reading of laws. I think this is realistic. Anchor: Who are the allies? Zyuganov: The allies have agreed to hold negotiations with some thirty groups: the agri-industrial alliance, Starodubtsev and Kharitonov; agrarian trade unions, Davydov; the military, Rodionov; Ilyukhin, the women's movement along with the youth movement, science led by Alfyorov, a very powerful and authoritative team they will make up together. Anchor: Which brings me back to the topic of May 1. If I understand you correctly, if the demonstrations on May 1, mainly under the CPRF flag are numerous then it makes sense to raise the issue of no confidence? Zyuganov: I think that the more powerful, the more well-organized these manifestations are, the more clearly they will express this position. We have prepared a resolution calling for the resignation of the government, a change of course and for a normal information policy. And we have called on all citizens. At 10 o'clock in the morning in Moscow they will get together in Kaluzhskaya Square. The route will reach Lubyanka. Incidentally, we will have a rally and a concert in Moscow, not just a meeting. It will be a big concert. Anchor: Will you hold a rock concert? Zyuganov: It will be a big rock concert, you will see that. By the way, the young respond willingly because they have also become tired because of this lawlessness and they will sing many very patriotic songs. We invite you. Anchor: Wait, what kind of a rock concert will it be coming from the CPRF? Zyuganov: Incidentally, we have a very powerful youth structure who are actively participating and preparing, quite a curious culture which is being actively utilized to destroy the country. I believe that it is necessary to make them work for creative purposes. Anchor: In this connection, talking about the features of May 1, 2003 for several years quite serious manifestations have been held and especially with slogans of government resignation. Gennady Andreyevich, let us talk honestly of this: three years in a row and what is the novelty of this demonstration in terms of slogans? Zyuganov: Alexei, the mood is radicalizing. I have held tens of meetings with women's and youth and veterans' audiences, knowledgeable academicians or simply ordinary people who come, some of them even with no socks on their feet -- they are radicalizing: they believe that this course is absolutely harmful, they believe that one should display more resolve and action. Now the conflict is over the sale of land, people see how the energy system is getting destroyed. So the slogan is not just the resignation of the government but it is also the need to put together a team capable of taking the country out of those deep waters. And I wish to say that such protests are rising. Secondly, people are absolutely displeased with the information policy. With their own money, from morn till dusk they throw the wool over people's eyes and lies are oozing, that's how it is and we intend to carry out actions and pickets against the state television and radio companies that engage in this. And the third topic is impoverishment, corruption and drug addition. These are the three basic themes that will be developed at all the manifestations. Anchor: Gennady Andreyevich, you reminded me about 1993. Ten years ago at this time the pickets were radicalizing outside Ostankino and there were clashes with militia and I would wish you to introduce clarity on this subject. Zyuganov: Alexei, I will add clarity. We have made so many actions over the past 10 years, we have not broken a single shop window. And we urge the authorities to abide by the norms and rules of behavior. They violate those rules right and left. Already there is no dialog in the State Duma itself. It is already impossible to express a view in the State Duma and to defend one's position. The so-called gray unity is everywhere, violating the elementary norms of the rules of procedure and law. The last time we held a demonstration against war, officials came and said you will not hold the manifestation. And I told them we will. I said I would head the demonstration myself but I assured them that we will go and we will fully control the situation and there will be order. But if all go each on their own, you will be responsible. That is why today I held a big operational meeting, I convened all. There will be 3,000 officers guarding the action, we met with the military, the special troops and all others. We are interested in the order and on May 1 and 9 we will do everything to keep order. But today the provocateurs sit in the Kremlin and are personified by the Putin administration. They are engaged in these unsightly practices and provocations starting with Those Going Together, and last time they wanted to go with brooms following their fathers and grand parents; and all the way to other nasty practices. I would like to say that there they provoke, there are specialists who engage in these practices. Let them be invited, including by the Patrushev service, and let them find out why such things are happening. Anchor: Gennady Andreyevich, one more question. Three years ago when President Putin was elected the President of Russia, the Communist Party received that election with alert expectation, to put it mildly although he was our political opponent at the elections but nevertheless you said on the air in our studio that the newcomer was a young and active officer from the special services and so on. This is by way of reminding you. Did your expectations come true or they did not? And if they did then in what? Zyuganov: He is conducting a dialog with different forces and he meets with people and factions and so on. But he did not put together his own strategy, his policy, his government. He does not guarantee elementary security and I am telling you what my electorate tell me. And then you look around, it is Easter, you bow on this bright day and you cross yourself. And at the same time his parliament and his majority introduce the INN (the individual taxation number), opposed by the Orthodox public. It makes your hair to stand on air. They say that he is from the security service and they have a perfect idea there of what corruption is and what is the destruction of the entire management system. He has not done anything to suppress this. He is supreme commander in chief, he is a military man, he can see what is going on. In this year Russia has not ordered a single helicopter. He is perfectly aware that the modern war and security cannot be won without this service. But nothing is done. The group of "Russkiye Vityazi" came. The youngest aircraft is 14 years old, the best group of pilots have nothing to fly in. I could go on listing these things. He came -- 3-4 regions got frozen in the Far East and much is being frozen right now, to boot. The first Message was hopeful, the second was frustrating and the third is one that you may dispense with the trouble of attending, it makes no sense. They do not know what to say. In foreign policy it is complete lack of clarity. There is one more lack of clarity with the Union State. As regards major economic programs -- nothing is being offered. Anchor: You mean there is disenchantment, we are losing time. The country is slipping onto the sidelines. It gets corrupted. It is first in extinction, in corruption, in prostitution. It is simply humiliating. It would seem he is quite a young man and he can take measures. And he even failed to expel Voloshin with his caboodle, to say nothing the one with Chubais. Anchor: And why did you do it in regard to Alexander Stalyevich... Zyuganov: It is simply a shame. Anchor: But how could you? Zyuganov: It is simply a shame, simply outrageous. Anchor: Gennady Andreyevich, one more question to conclude. An ordinary trainee from St.Petersburg sent this message this morning: "Will a CPRF candidate be running for the governor of St.Petersburg and if yes, has it been decided who?" People are interested and concerned -- St.Petersburg voters as to who will run for governor. Don't be insincere, Gennady Andreyevich. Zyuganov: I am not. I intend to travel to Leningrad in May... to St.Petersburg. It is my favorite city and it will turn 300. Anchor: So it is your favorite city? Zyuganov: Yes, I like it very much. When I got to Leningrad for the first time it was a beautiful city of the power. The buildings and the layout are unique. It is a city of world glory, the city of the revolution, the city of unheard of courage and heroism. One has to be honest in regard to... But of course in such a city as this one has to invest funds from the whole of the country but now the nation's wallet is empty and it is even difficult to organize something for the holiday. But I would wish to meet there with the most influential groups and discuss things. It is because much in the country will depend on the people in charge there. Anchor: We will wait for your answer, Gennady Andreyevich. I hope that you will give the answer and the Communist Party will give the answer because the St.Petersburg governor is doubtless a figure of federal stature. Zyuganov: Of course. Anchor: Thank you very much. The CPRF leader Gennady Andreyevich Zyuganov was guest of Ekho Moskvy. Thank you. Zyuganov: Thank you. ******** Web page for CDI Russia Weekly: http://www.cdi.org/russia Archive for Johnson's Russia List: http://www.cdi.org/russia/johnson With support from the Carnegie Corporation of New York and the MacArthur Foundation A project of the Center for Defense Information (CDI) 1779 Massachusetts Ave. NW Washington DC 20036