Yavlisnky Interview, Yabloko

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Izvestia
December 17, 2001
GRIGORY YAVLINSKY: ALL OF THAT EXIST IN REAL LIFE TWO HOURS BY FLIGHT FROM HERE
Author: Svetlana Babayeva
[from WPS Monitoring Agency, www.wps.ru/e_index.html]
AN INTERVIEW WITH YABLOKO LEADER GRIGORI YAVLINSKY.

An extensive interview with Yabloko leader Grigory Yavlinsky on his party's policies and rare appearance in public

Grigori Yavlinsky rarely appears in the media nowadays. He agreed to meet with this Izvestia correspondent on the eve of Yabloko's congress, which was scheduled to take place one of these days. He did not bother to conceal his skeptical attitude towards the media.

Question: Yabloko will convene a congress this month. According to information available to Izvestia, you plan some truly grandiose changes.

Grigori Yavlinsky: That's a bit of an exaggeration. We will preserve the distinctive features and continuity of Yabloko. There will be, however, some serious changes in the charter. If the congress approves, we will amend the procedure of admitting members into the party. It will be like this henceforth: a person submits an application and becomes a member of Yabloko three months later, unless his or her application has been turned down. We will abandon the probation period we currently have.

We plan to do away with Vladimir Lenin's formula, which states that "everybody should spend some time in the cell organization". You may be a Yabloko member and never attend conferences or meetings. You can only elect the party chairman during primaries and the party's candidate for the presidency.

Question: It will surely be viewed as Yabloko's last attempt to swell its ranks so as to convince the Justice Ministry that Yabloko meets all requirements of the new law on political parties.

Grigori Yavlinsky: We already have something to convince the Justice Ministry with. Yabloko's membership numbers over 12,000. We also meet every other thing required by the law.

Question: Why then is this party liberalism?

Grigori Yavlinsky: Ours is a liberal party. We do not have rigid regulations covering every minute in detail.

Question: Why is Yabloko, so great, liberal, and pro-European party losing votes then? You may fail to scale the 5% barrier next time. Are you afraid of coming in last?

Grigori Yavlinsky: I've been answering this question since 1993. We are not afraid of anything. The absolute figures of our voters steadily remain on the level of 5-6 million.

We are aware of the authoritarian moods and tendencies in the country. Well, they are natural to a considerable extent, following the way the reforms were implemented throughout the decade. "We've seen these democrats," the people say.

Question: And yet, you are not afraid to use the term "democratic" in the name of the party. Are you sure your electorate will remain with you?

Grigori Yavlinsky: I'm sure of the future. The electorate we've been talking about has voted for Yabloko five times. Moreover, nobody knows the exact figures of who votes for whom. Nobody save the Central Election Commission chairman probably.

Question: Are you getting ready for the next parliamentary election?

Grigori Yavlinsky: We will begin preparations right after the congress.

Question: Do you think a rightist liberal party, an alliance with the Union of Right Forces, will be formed for the next election?

Grigori Yavlinsky: It depends on the situation. Our coalition in the Duma works successfully just as we promised. We act as one on very many issues. We cooperate in some regions as well. For the time being, I do not perceive anything beyond cooperation of two strong and independent parties. The problem is that our voters are incompatible all too frequently. There is a principal discord on some matters. What can we do when the Union of Right Forces leader Anatoly Chubais calls for a war in the Caucasus because "this is how the Russian army can be revived"?

Question: There is the widespread and stable opinion that Yabloko is ever in the opposition. Is it an illusion? Or has the authorities these last few years failed to suggest anything you would support?

Grigori Yavlinsky: We always back up what we think is worth our support. When our proposals on lower taxes were implemented, for example. Or when the president put forth the idea of a Russian- European anti-ballistic missile defense. Or when the president backed up the counter-terrorism coalition. On the other hand, we will never support the idea of importing radioactive wastes. These days, we are in the opposition to the policy of constructing a controllable democracy in Russia. Look what is being done to TV-6, how TV channels are working, or how regional elections take place.

Question: There are rumors that you yourself would not balk at the use of administrative resources. I mean there are rumors that you called Vladimir Gusinsky on the phone when you disliked something newspapers of Media-Most wrote about you.

Grigori Yavlinsky: No. I have never called him and never will. Neither would I call your newspaper.

Question: Are you in touch with Gusinsky?

Grigori Yavlinsky: The last time we talked on the phone was in April. I still respect the TV, radio, newspapers, and magazines he created. It is a pity that all was devastated.

Question: You prepared some serious programs for the congress. Do you discuss parts of them with the government so as to make them foundations of draft laws at a future date perhaps?

Grigori Yavlinsky: Yes, we discuss a lot of things. All military issues are constantly discussed with the Security Council, Defense Ministry, and General Staff. We discuss some serious suggestions pertaining to taxes and budget with Kudrin, court system with Kozak, and the Russian-European anti-ballistic missile defense and matters of local self-rule with the presidential administration. This is a long- term program. We will probably use it in the election.

Question: All the same, your documents are somewhat Utopian on the whole - implementation of the law, transparent civil service, eradication of corruption. It is not very realistic in this country with its traditions, the last decade, etc.

Grigori Yavlinsky: We are the opposition precisely because of what you've just mentioned. Because those who were or still are in the corridors of power believe that "This is what our country is like and what it will always be like". I do not think, for instance, that my country has already built democracy and everything has been done that was to be done. I think we live in a quasi-Soviet period now because all our leaders, all our nomenclature are Soviet era products.

Question: There is such a thing as a transition period etc.

Grigori Yavlinsky: It's a policy of the weak or the conniving.

Question: And yours is impossible to implement.

Grigori Yavlinsky: It is not. Because everything we propose exist in real life just two hours by plane from here. Yes, there are countries in Latin America and Asia where the state of affairs like the one we have today lasts for 5-6 decades on end. That is pretty much what they have convinced themselves of. They say: "that's how it has always been, and that's how it always will".

Question: And when do you think we may reach the level of what exists two hours by plane from here?

Grigori Yavlinsky: In 15-20 years of hard work.

Question: Let us consider one thesis in your manifesto. Freedom of movement. Are you prepared to meet an influx of residents of half of southern regions in Moscow tomorrow?

Grigori Yavlinsky: Everybody who needs it and who can afford it (they usually can, you know), and are getting the propiska in Moscow without trouble even now. The more rigid a rule is, the worse corruption becomes because it is a watering hole. Nothing should be changed at a single stroke. Operating step by step, that's the ticket. As for the Caucasus... let's decide: it is either you build a wall to divide them and us, or you learn to live together. There are no other options.

Question: What party system do you think will exist in Russia in future? The Unity is talking about two or three parties...

Grigori Yavlinsky: Just fancy what will happen if the president wakes up tomorrow and says out loud that the Unity is a bad party. Do you think you will have the time to approach them with the question of what they think about it? I do not think. The Unity will be history before you get there... It is difficult to predict the future political picture. At this point, we have two political parties and a half.

Question: That's probably the Communists, you, and... Union of Right Forces as "the half"... Is it true you spend virtually all your time giving lectures abroad and have all but abandoned Yabloko?

Grigori Yavlinsky: No. The Executive Council of the party meets every week, and the bureau every two weeks. There has not been a single meeting that I did not chair. As for the lectures abroad, some are read in the United States on the basis of my book on the theory of economics. I mean, it is not only that we study by their textbooks.

Question: And still, you've dropped out of sight.

Grigori Yavlinsky: I am frequently seen in the streets. As for why I do not appear on TV, ask somebody else. Our TV is an instrument for tampering with public opinion. It is not a means for debating on social problems. Unless this state of affairs is amended, we are going to have forbidden figures and forbidden subjects.

Question: Do you think the president too is thinking along these lines, "In this country..." etc?

Grigori Yavlinsky: I do not want to think so. I will do my best to make the president aware of this matter and the issue of the necessity to lower taxes, to debureaucratize the system, Chechnya... All occurrences so far show that we were correct then.

Question: Will you run for president again?

Grigori Yavlinsky: I have not given it a thought yet. We will see. For the time being, the tendencies are too confusing. A lot of what the president is doing - his statements in Berlin, Brussels, and Shanghai, his September 24 statement, and some other moves - is quite correct. They allow Russia to retain its statehood. At the same time, his domestic policy all too frequently aims to continue constructing in Russia of a corporation state. Unless serious changes take place in this sphere, foreign policy will degenerate into something we already had in 1941-1945. I mean an alliance in the face of a tactical objective, and an immediate split once it has been accomplished.

Question: Your deputy Sergei Ivanenko is so frequently seen in public that some observers are left with the impression that Yavlinsky intends to give up politics.

Grigori Yavlinsky: I like it that he is seen in public frequently. That's his job. As for me, "Do not worry for I have not left. And do not hope, because "I'll never leave", as Vladimir Vysotsky put it.

(Translated by A. Ignatkin)

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